911 Cultwatch demands Dave & Annie disclose all

[PaulStott]

Unless, of course, you really do have a few sneaking suspicions about those planes....

I seem to remember we were criticising Shayler's "No Planer" arguments when the Truth movement was bending over backwards to explain away Shayler's anti-semitism, dishonesty and his and Annie's red-baiting.

Had we been listened to then...........

[Dogsmilk]

Unless, of course, you really do have a few sneaking suspicions about those planes....

I seem to remember we were criticising Shayler's "No Planer" arguments when the Truth movement was bending over backwards to explain away Shayler's anti-semitism, dishonesty and his and Annie's red-baiting.

Had we been listened to then...........

Yet you went on to endorse a particularly notorious no-planer yourself! And only inserted your 'caveat' when a truther pointed out the nature of the site to you.
Look Paul, please give a straight answer - did you or did you not fail to realise what 911Truthlings was actually about and subsequently backpedal? It's a simple question.
And - as you're getting on your high horse about anti-semitism - you YET AGAIN fail to address why mocking the mentally unwell is ok.
And let's just remember none of you lot in any way predicted what would happen to Shayler, but that hasn't stopped you trying to say "I told you so".

[gruts]

if you insist on posting a stream of infantile attacks against this forum and its members on a website and blog called "9/11 Cultwatch", it's a little bit rich of you to then complain so indignantly about being labelled a "9/11 Truth Critic" isn't it?

The infantile attacks are ones myself Paul & Heidi are the objects of.

not really - it's 100% true that you contribute to a website and blog called "9/11 cultwatch" and it's 100% true that they're full of infantile attacks against 9/11 truth, this forum and its members.

you have a perfect right to do this of course, but if you then also insist on getting your knickers in a twist about being accurately labelled as a "9/11 truth critic" - it just makes you look very hypocritical and even more infantile.

I think that if you really were a "radical political activist", you'd probably have more important/less asinine things to do with your time.

The idea of you commenting on any of this is, frankly, laughable

no - the idea that you're a "radical political activist" is - frankly - a laughable exercise in self-delusion on your part.

associating yourself with nico haupt (not to mention the cyber-tantrums you've posted on this thread) also speaks volumes about you....comrade.

Here we get to the kernel of it--I have no affinity or association with Haupt, and the persistent and repeated lies to this effect are clearly motivated by a disinformational agenda on the part of those repeating it.

not true, as has already been pointed out here....

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... 754#111754

....and your handwaving attempts to justify associating your silly blog with haupt's drivel are utterly pathetic.

the kernel of it is that if you had any shred of integrity or credibility, you'd remove the link to "9/11 truthlings" from your website.

[PaulStott]

Dogsmilk - The 9/11 Truthlings site is a perfect introduction to the world of 9/11 truth.

The link was put on for the gossip it gives on truthers, and its range of wacky 9/11 links. To see a 9/11 'truth' site condemned as wacky or extreme, given what we see posted on the net from 'truthers' is a delicious irony you are probably too close to the movement to understand.

There are plenty of links on our site to resources we take issue with politically - from an Islamist headbanger like Kaasem Khaleel, (to save you the trouble of reading his book, everything, and I mean everything, is the fault of the Jews) to a right wing warmonger such such as Rudolph Giuliani. But we learn something from all - indeed I have lost count of the amount of times we have linked back to articles on this site.

Our websites (don't forget www.911cultwatch.org.uk ) are not limited hangouts, but resources for all investigating the 9/11 cult, and we work to ensure the damage it can cause to progressive movements is limited.

One of the problems we have with Shayler's breakdown is the bizarre timing of it - he was sane right up to the moment he gave evidence to Lord Stevens report into Diana's death, indeed up until the day he finished working on a particular 7/7 video, then all of a sudden he was ga-ga.

Is that plausible to you?

Can you honestly tell me that when you hear him saying he is King Chav, you never thought for a moment "there are people in MI5 roaring with laughter at us right now"?

9/11 Cultwatch always predicted that Annie Machon and David Shayler would leave the 9/11 truth movement in the lurch, as we doubted their conversions 'to the cause' were genuine.

We are always willing to hear evidence that might cause us to abandon our position.

[Dogsmilk]

Is that plausible to you?

Not really.

The 9/11 Truthlings site is a perfect introduction to the world of 9/11 truth

From an NPT perspective.

One of the problems we have with Shayler's breakdown is the bizarre timing of it - he was sane right up to the moment he gave evidence to Lord Stevens report into Diana's death, indeed up until the day he finished working on a particular 7/7 video, then all of a sudden he was ga-ga.

You still avoid the question.

By invoking "bizarre timing", you seem to be implying it is somehow 'staged' which sounds to me like baseless conspiracy theory. Otherwise, the precise timing is totally irrelevant.
A breakdown, psychotic episode or whatever can hit someone at any time. There may be signs discernible to to those around that person beforehand or it may just come totally out of the blue.

Can you honestly tell me that when you hear him saying he is King Chav, you never thought for a moment "there are people in MI5 roaring with laughter at us right now"?

Us...?

I'm sure plenty of people in MI5 are pissing themselves. It's eminently possible Larry could suddenly decide there's a radio in his head telling him he's king parapolitics and I'm sure that would generate much mirth in various quarters, but dem's the breaks. Curiously, while Shayler has been basically dropped by the TM, you guys seem determined to keep waving him in everyone's faces. I say leave the guy alone and hope he gets his nonsense back together rather than join in with any pissing of oneself.

9/11 Cultwatch always predicted that Annie Machon and David Shayler would leave the 9/11 truth movement in the lurch, as we doubted their conversions 'to the cause' were genuine.

What do you care? I thought you thought the TM was rubbish anyway.
As it happens, Shayler hasn't left the TM "in the lurch", he's clearly become unwell. I have always found it strange that you consider these two people to be of such monumental significance.

The link was put on for the gossip it gives on truthers, and its range of wacky 9/11 links. To see a 9/11 'truth' site condemned as wacky or extreme, given what we see posted on the net from 'truthers' is a delicious irony you are probably too close to the movement to understand.

Given you initially signposted the site as "watching the 911 truthlings" (the phrase "truthlings" itself being a no-planer phrase - I suspect you originally didn't know that) I find this rather implausible. At the very least, you in no way intimated this was your intention until a truther picked you up on the link.
It is also curious as to why you think "gossip" is in any way valuable, particularly when it is explicitly centred around promoting NPT. As I said, surely something like 911myths would be more appropriate if you were more concerned with attacking what you perceive as unfounded claims made by the TM as opposed to the kind of 'analysis' that represents a kind of no-planes version of a celebrity gossip magazine - one would think you were more interested in dirt - any dirt - than a sober discussion of what's got mileage and what hasn't regarding 911.
At the end of the day, it is a no-planer site, plain and simple. As I said, you could just as well get "gossip" from the 911truth controversies section here.
The site is "wacky" and "extreme" because its entire existence is predicated on no planes from a particularly deranged proponent of this rather daft theory. I think there is much posted here that is wacky and extreme and I am apt to comment on some of it, (and I would have thought the nature of my posts over recent times would have made it abundantly clear I am predominantly concerned with the renaissance in promoting cyber anti-semitism/Holocaust denial/veiled neo-Nazism that has come to infect (not exclusively - I've even seen this stuff crop up on computer games forums) the TM. You guys should know a lot more about this than me, but don't say a great deal about it) - though there is much I think is interesting and given the site is predicated on endorsing no particular theory (as opposed to 911T) it's inevitable that the full range of opinion will be expressed and that people will always find stuff they consider too rich for their tastes. Indeed, given you yourself have asserted that there are questions to be answered with regard to 911 but the TM does not ask the right questions, there is simply nothing to stop you raising these 'correct' questions here. I happen to think when you guys aren't trying to make out you're infallible, relentlessly pursuing A&D or making sneering ad hom attacks on forum members on your blog you do raise some interesting points and I would honestly like to hear more of your actual perspective on the events of 911.

[911CultWatchWatch]

You have several different personalities at the moment varying from passable to puerile Larry.
Are you several people all at once?

Your attempted insult might be more impressive if you could spell puerile...

Okay it's spelt correctly now Larry so now you can explain your multiple personalities for us.

Who are your main harassment targets?

interesting use of terminology: are you engaging in a bit of projection perchance?

I was asking you about your objectives here - not talking to myself. That's a somewhat feeble way to avoid a question, to say there is no question to answer. You're going the way of a corporate spin doctor. Not a Truther.

I was disappointed to see your demanding personal information from people on this thread and you still haven't properly explained why you were doing that.

I thought you worked for a magazine. If that's true you should at least have one or two answers to questions about yourself or else why would anybody trust what you write?

[ian neal]

Larry

You should post in critics corner as I have said previously

Bye

[Larry O'Hara]

Larry

You should post in critics corner as I have said previously

Bye

1) This thread was ostensibly started by me: so why don't you move the whole thread to critics corner then?

2) it seems to be par for the course that any kind of lies/misrepresentation of me is allowed here--eg the Haupt no-planes garbage--yet when I question it, and seek to defend myself/ascertain the precise motives of those spreading such disinformation, it is me who is criticised.

But like I say. move this whole thread to critics corner, problem solved.

[chrisc]

2) it seems to be par for the course that any kind of lies/misrepresentation of me is allowed here--eg the Haupt no-planes garbage--yet when I question it, and seek to defend myself/ascertain the precise motives of those spreading such disinformation, it is me who is criticised.

It's not disinformation, for some unknown reason you think Nico Haupt's site is essential, yet there is no evidence that you follow it or watch the videos he promotes or the ones of himself he posts -- how can his views be so essential that you don't actually follow them?

Can tell us some of the essential insights you have gleaned from studying his work?

And why have you ignored all the attempts to alert you to the fact that he is a Redwatch style stalker -- it make's it appear that you support his activities by linking to him and totally flies in the face of:

4) Encouraging activists opposed to conspiracism to understand they are not alone, helping them speak up, and not be shouted down, intimidated or ignored. Such activists may well include a sensible reality-oriented minority inside the 9/11 Truth campaign itself.

6) To enhance national/international networking of those genuinely committed to evidence-based parapolitical research. To this end, we welcome reciprocal web-links with those in agreement: email us at nineelevencultwatch@uk2.net.

Nico Haupt has done lots of shouting down and intimidation -- if you watched the link to him doing this at a public meeting I posted above you would know this.

You must know that your link to him is very off putting to left wing activists in the truth movement -- the "sensible reality-oriented minority inside the 9/11 Truth campaign" that you claim to want to work with, in fact your link with him makes it appear to be totally bogus that you want to work with any decent truth activists -- all the prominent ones have been attacked by Nico, as you would know if you followed his work...

You know he isn't "genuinely committed to evidence-based parapolitical research" so why are you promoting him?

Is it just because his stuff is so clearly bonkers that you like the fact that he can be used to make everyone questioning 9/11 look like they are bonkers too? Because this is how it looks to me... and this is basically what Paul said above:

The 9/11 Truthlings site is a perfect introduction to the world of 9/11 truth

It's perfect if you want to make everyone look insane / stupid etc...

I assume you wouldn't link to Redwatch as being essential because of it's coverage of lefties in the UK so why on earth is Nico Haupt essential -- it's essentially the same kind of nonsense.

[ian neal]

Larry

You should post in critics corner as I have said previously

Bye

1) This thread was ostensibly started by me: so why don't you move the whole thread to critics corner then?

2) it seems to be par for the course that any kind of lies/misrepresentation of me is allowed here--eg the Haupt no-planes garbage--yet when I question it, and seek to defend myself/ascertain the precise motives of those spreading such disinformation, it is me who is criticised.

But like I say. move this whole thread to critics corner, problem solved.

That's what I did. You clearly hadn't noticed

[Stefan]

Th Nico Haupt fan club are up to their old tricks again I see...

[Larry O'Hara]

Th Nico Haupt fan club are up to their old tricks again I see...

Indeed: the most charitable interpretation of ChrisC & others continually drawing attention to Haupt is that they themselves are fans of this sad muppet. Their problem.

[chrisc]

ChrisC & others continually drawing attention to Haupt

No Larry it it you and Paul that do this.



Responsible 9/11 truth activists debunk the nonsense he supports and then move on, they don't link to it in the most prominent way they can, as you do.

Repeated and continuing behavior should result in comment moderation, temporary, long-term, and if necessary permanent bans from activist groups, removal of links from websites, cancellation of speaking engagements, etc.

http://www.truthmove.org/content/2008-declaration/

[Larry O'Hara]

ChrisC & others continually drawing attention to Haupt

No Larry it it you and Paul that do this.



Responsible 9/11 truth activists debunk the nonsense he supports and then move on, they don't link to it in the most prominent way they can, as you do.

Repeated and continuing behavior should result in comment moderation, temporary, long-term, and if necessary permanent bans from activist groups, removal of links from websites, cancellation of speaking engagements, etc.

http://www.truthmove.org/content/2008-declaration/

YOUR CONTINUAL ADVERTISING FOR hAUPT TELLS US WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM. nOTED.

Now, are you Machon's bag-carrier in Make War History or not? Simple question, that you haven't answered. A political question not a personal one.

[Dogsmilk]

See that Nico Haupt - that's you that is

Larry you are behaving like a child

Stop making pathetic attempts to transfer your own fully explicit advertising of Nico Haupt onto ChrisC. You're just making yourself look even more daft than usual.

[chrisc]

YOUR CONTINUAL ADVERTISING FOR hAUPT TELLS US WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM. nOTED.

This is clearly a case of projection.

Larry and Paul are the ones with a blog that has it's top external link, out of just two, to Nico Haupt's blog.

It's been noted that you consider his site to be "essential" but have presented no evidence that you have actually studied this "essential" material in any detail.

It has been noted that you have ignored all attempted to warn you that you are linking to and promoting a Redwatch style stalker.

It has noted that you are clearly not interested in working with "a sensible reality-oriented minority inside the 9/11 Truth campaign itself", those who are "genuinely committed to evidence-based parapolitical research".

All this has been noted and lessons have been drawn from these notes and collected here: http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2389

[Larry O'Hara]

YOUR CONTINUAL ADVERTISING FOR hAUPT TELLS US WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM. nOTED.

This is clearly a case of projection.

Larry and Paul are the ones with a blog that has it's top external link, out of just two, to Nico Haupt's blog.

It's been noted that you consider his site to be "essential" but have presented no evidence that you have actually studied this "essential" material in any detail.

It has been noted that you have ignored all attempted to warn you that you are linking to and promoting a Redwatch style stalker.

It has noted that you are clearly not interested in working with "a sensible reality-oriented minority inside the 9/11 Truth campaign itself", those who are "genuinely committed to evidence-based parapolitical research".

All this has been noted and lessons have been drawn from these notes and collected here: http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2389

it has also been noted you have refused to answer a simple question re Machon.

Interestingly, both Machon & Shayler were in MI5 when Redwatch was set up. Anything to declare?

[chrisc]

it has also been noted you have refused to answer a simple question re Machon.

I'm not really that interested in these two, there are some comments on them here if you are really that interested in my views on them: http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2394

Interestingly, both Machon & Shayler were in MI5 when Redwatch was set up. Anything to declare?

Are you trying to imply that you think I'm a MI5 agent?

[PaulStott]

I'm not really that interested in these two, there are some comments on them here if you are really that interested in my views on them: http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2394

An interesting thread, thanks for the link.

[chrisc]

Larry and Paul are the ones with a blog that has it's top external link, out of just two, to Nico Haupt's blog.

Oops I got that wrong, it was the most prominent, top external link, but the 911 Cultwatch blog has been updated and now it's the top link out of 3 "9/11 Links":



However as the thread above shows if anyone dares point out that 911 Cultwatch are strongly linked to Nico Haupts blog, then the person pointing this out will be labled a "low-life" and accused of spreading "disinformation", "being fans of this sad muppet" (Nico Haupt) and "advertising for Haupt".

I guess this is the nature of "cutting edge parapolitical research" and it illustrates "an expertise in fringe politics" and shows that 911 Cultwatch are "committed to rigorous analytical research and related political intervention"...

[Larry O'Hara]

More Haupt advertising from you: does he pay you for every reference? Or maybe you get to star in one of his films? Do tell....

[chrisc]

More Haupt advertising from you: does he pay you for every reference?

I wouldn't bother asking you this because I doubt he does pay you for the top link from your blog, though perhaps he, or whoever funds him should.

Where are my links to him?

Or maybe you get to star in one of his films? Do tell....

Have you watched any of his films, did you gain any essential insight from them?

[chrisc]

So, the 9/11 Cultwatch blog has removed their link to Nico Haupt, perhaps this report of his recent activities was the last straw for his supporters?

Within the last couple of weeks during our weekly Saturday vigil's at ground zero there has been a dangerous individual causing us many problems. His name is Nico Haupt mostly known for his no plane research, and his actions need to be made public for our safety.

After the Time Square Bombing that took place at the very place that WeAreCHANGE does their street actions each Saturday night, Nico came out to our Ground Zero Vigil with a huge sign saying “We Did The Time Square Bombing.” Nico tried to associate us with the terrorists who committed a horrendous and cowardly act on this city of New York. He continued for weeks with the police department ignoring him, and decided to raise his efforts in trying to destroy our message of peace and truth.

Nico verbally sexually harassed our female members, bit one of our members nose, choked and punched one our members and committed other horrendous acts all while the police always let him walk away without checking his I.D. There is video of all his actions, and it will be published in the coming days. It will show what we have to go through, and if there is another altercation, the public will know the truth behind this matter.

This past Saturday Nico came down wearing a fake Hitler mustache on his face, verbally harassing our members. He then walked up to Sabrina Rivera and myself, charging at our faces trying to put the Hitler mustache on us. There was a scuffle, and when the police where called, Nico was seen trying to walk away. The police came and because it was not witnessed by them, Sabrina and Nico were issued summons and will have a day in court.

So, did you ever answer the question -- what was essential about his views and activities...?

[PaulStott]

So, the 9/11 Cultwatch blog has removed their link to Nico Haupt, perhaps this report of his recent activities was the last straw for his supporters?

We were never supporters of Haupt (the more you say something Chris, it does not make it true) but his site serves as a useful reference for the full range of bile out there in 9/11 truthdom. The fact it annoys you so much rather reinforces that.............

As Haupt's behaviour now appears to be too bad even for 9/11 Truthers, we have taken it off.

Finally I notice on this occasion you do not put up a screen shot from the 9/11 Cultwatch blog to illustrate your point. Is it because any screenshot would undermine the silence on this forum about the fascinating Truth Watch UK website?

http://truthwatchuk.wordpress.com/

You are on board a very leaky ship Chris.

[chrisc]

As Haupt's behaviour now appears to be too bad even for 9/11 Truthers, we have taken it off.

Glad you finally realised this, it's taken several months to get this through to you though hasn't it...

Finally I notice on this occasion you do not put up a screen shot from the 9/11 Cultwatch blog to illustrate your point. Is it because any screenshot would undermine the silence on this forum about the fascinating Truth Watch UK website?

You can have a screenshot if you want one, here is one I prepared earlier...



The Truth Watch UK site has photo shopped versions of photos from Indymedia, dinformation about Indymedia and it appears that the person behind this site was also the person behind a spate of fake We Are Change UK and fake Truth Action posts on Indymedia -- in this case do you actually know who you are linking to and what their politics are...? I suspect not, based on your past record...