Vapour trails, contrails or chemtrails? Fact or fiction?

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Arnie for CHEMTRAILS?

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http://www.newstarget.com/022158.html

Governor Schwarzenegger Backs Aerial Biochemical Spraying That Harms Children
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NewsTarget) On September 9th, 2007 several planes hired by the State of California Food and Agricultural Department (CDFA) flying at an altitude of approximately 500ft sprayed the untested biochemical, CheckMate®OLR-F, on over 30,000 citizens in Monterey and other surrounding cities in California. This occurred without the permission of the citizens. The spraying continued for three nights from approximately 8pm to 5am. About 1,500 pounds of biochemical were dumped on the cities. Many citizens did not even know what was happening when the planes were buzzing overhead.

An 11 month old child nearly died from breathing difficulties. A six year old child developed asthma as a result of the aerial spraying. Over one hundred people signed affidavits stating that they got sick from the spraying. Hundreds of people had symptoms like; shortness of breath, headaches, dizziness, burning lungs, nausea, and muscle aches.

The excuse for aerial spraying is not a deadly disease carrying mosquito, but a moth whose larva may eat some leaves of some plants; called the Light Brown Apple Moth (LBAM). The CDFA considers the moth an invasive species since it is from Australia. Yet, evidence suggests that the moth has been in California for many years, living peacefully. In response to the moth, the CDFA set up relatively harmless sticky traps, which have captured nearly every Light Brown Apple Moth in the Northern California region.

Governor Schwarzenegger is a strong supporter of the declared emergency; the need to spray untested biochemicals on humans to stop the LBAM from destroying crops.

This aerial spraying violates several state, federal and international laws. It violates the right to personal safety given by the California State Constitution, the very document that creates the California government. It violates the Americans with Disabilities Act, which protects people with chemical sensitivities and other disabilities from discrimination. It violates the Federal constitutional right to personal liberty. It violates the EPA's laws against spraying pesticides on people. It violates human rights laws that say that human experimentation without consent is unethical and immoral. It violates criminal laws that claim it is a crime to poison children, or anyone else. It violates pollution laws to spray a toxic substance over plants, animals, and waterways. It violates laws against organized crime and it violates the very tenants of our democracy; a system of government designed to represent the people, not to poison the people to represent private agri-business interests.

Recently, in a series of rapid fire events, the CDFA declared a state of emergency relating to the LBAM claiming that the moths are about to destroy a huge portion of the state's agricultural crops. The claim is that the LBAM will cause hundreds of millions of dollars of crop damage. Due to this supposed “emergency,” the CDFA claims it must immediately spray an untested biochemical to eliminate this threat as soon as possible despite the reported harms. Mind you, these moth's only travel within a 20-30 yard diameter of their birth place during their entire life.

The state of emergency is a false declaration because the CDFA cannot produce any meaningful evidence that the LBAM can or would destroy crops and the sticky traps are effective at containing the moths. In Hawaii, the LBAM has been a help to the ecosystem by destroying invasive species and there's no evidence of crop harm for the last 100 years.

The only emergency seems to be that the State of California, under Governor Schwarzenegger's helm, has an urgent need to spray as many humans; men, women, children, pregnant women, people with allergies, the elderly, and the sick, with chemicals. There is no sensible explanation as to why they want to do this, nor is there any explanation as to why they think that spraying pesticides on people is a good thing to do.

Spraying chemicals, safe or not safe, on humans against their will is illegal. It is a crime! The Nuremberg Code, established after the horrors of World War II, prohibits human experimentation without the consent of the person who is being experimented upon.

The state does not care about the over 200 health complaints, nor the laws they are violating, but rather cares about the commercial agricultural business. Trade partners with the US may not accept shipments of plants or produce that may have the LBAM. The CDFA has given various figures of the estimated crop damage that the LBAM will cause. Their estimates range from 100 million to 2.7 billion dollars. Now, these estimates are not based on any scientific survey but rather on their opinion and fears.

Even if the harmless moth could cause such damage, it is a dangerous precedent to place the health and safety of United States citizens, especially infants and children, secondary to money. So the CDFA and Governor Schwarzenegger has determined that 100 million dollars of possible damage gives them justification to poison children with chemicals. In this case, economic factors have been given priority over liberty and human value.

And the question I have been asking myself is - who is going to protect the children who will be sprayed?

So what chemicals make up Checkmate OLR-F and LBAM-F Products?

This has been the technical question many people have been asking. The specific details of the chemicals seem to be of less importance than the simple fact that these are chemicals. Synthetic chemicals do not have a place on our bodies without our permission. And they do not have a place in our children's bodies who have a much lower tolerance to environmental toxins!

My understanding is that approximately 15-20% of the main biochemical is made up of a synthetically derived moth pheromone. This pheromone supposedly confuses the moths and disrupts their mating cycles. I am unaware of any scientific evidence to prove that the pheromone is effective at controlling the LBAM population. I supposed the CDFA's plan is to see how it works after a year or more of spraying. This is essentially biochemical testing. And the problem is that they are doing it on the public on a large scale, against the people's will. Due to the declaration of an emergency, the CDFA allow themselves to bypass the normal environmental review process meant to examine such questions.

The concern with the Checkmate chemicals is not so much about the pheromone, but rather the pheromone distribution system. The pheromone is encapsulated in a micro-capsule (like a miniature pill) which the CDFA brags is biodegradable. What they do not tell you is that the capsule needs to dry out to biodegrade. In water environments (like your body), the pheromone stays encapsulated. The micro-capsule takes approximately 30 days to degrade. The full degradation occurring within 30 days is unlikely because Monterey and Santa Cruz Counties experience frequent rain and dampness from the Pacific Ocean. Thus, the people in the areas that are sprayed will be inhaling and touching miniature pills. Once in their bodies, the capsule will likely slowly degrade causing moth pheromone to be released directly into people's bloodstream.

The micro-capsule is made out of what are falsely called “inert” ingredients. Again, the EPA brags that these “inert” ingredients are mostly ionized water. However, they forget to tell you that there are also two known dangerous toxic substances in the inerts - tricaprylyl methyl ammonium chloride (TMAC) and polymethylene polyphenyl isocyanate (PPI).

The breathing problems and asthma-like conditions are known side effects of PPI. So how is the state legally able to spray it on people?

The way they illegally avoid the law and lie to people, so that people will be lulled into a stupor, is by saying that PPI, along with other ingredients, are actually not in the pesticide. Well, this is about 5% true and 95% a lie. Say you are baking a cake; you use flour, sugar, some eggs and other ingredients, and you bake it. One could argue that, in the final cake product, there is no flour but rather a new chemical compound called cake. In the same way, when PPI and other ingredients are processed, they meld and bind together and change their chemical form. They no longer resemble exactly their original substances, just like cake does not look much like the flour it was made of. When you examine the final biochemical, you will see no PPI but rather some new toxic substance.

Since there is no independently verifiable evidence that these new chemical compounds are toxic or not, other than 117 signed affidavits of people who got sick, and since there is a so-called “emergency”, no thorough testing needs to be done. It is a devious way to avoid the law. The end result is that we must “trust” the EPA to say the chemicals are safe. It's hard to trust the EPA because, for example, with water fluoridation the entire employee's union at the EPA came out to say that water fluoridation is dangerous and harmful while the official position of the EPA is that water fluoridation is a good thing. It also becomes more difficult to win a court case against the aerial spraying when you cannot get any evidence that the chemicals are dangerous because you are not allowed to independently verify anything that the EPA alleges.

Strangely, the CDFA came out with precautions for this “non-toxic” chemical. Recommendations such as; to close all your windows during the spray, to stay inside, to hose everything off in the morning before you touch it, and to not touch anything that is covered with the chemical residue (anything outside) were encouraged. These warnings are good ideas since the micro-capsule can easily be inhaled, stays stuck on things, or remains in the air. I recently checked the CDFA website looking to quote this document and they had removed all warnings about the chemical, claiming now that it is totally safe. Perhaps this was spurred by the CDFA Secretary of Agriculture A.G. Kawamura's concern that citizens would waste too much water following the CDFA's instructions to wash the chemical off of things before touching them. It is eerie how A.G. Kawamura is concerned about saving water and our environment, but is totally oblivious to the fact that hundreds of people have been poisoned due to his aerial spraying efforts.

Another concern is the Checkmate OLR-F and LBAM-F warning label from the manufacturer:

“Keep Out of Reach of Children"

"Caution: Harmful if absorbed through the skin. Causes moderate eye irritation. Avoid contact with skin, eyes, or clothing. Harmful if inhaled. Avoid breathing vapor or spray mist.” The criminals at the CDFA claim we should not worry about this warning label. According to the CDFA's toxicity theory, since the biochemical is going to be inhaled and touched in smaller doses, this warning is no longer necessary as it refers only to those who handle the chemicals."

Due to this premise, the CDFA insists that the 117 documented complaints of illnesses are psychosomatic and are not caused by the Checkmate. They continue to spray without thoroughly investigating these health claims. Infants cannot get psychosomatic illnesses because they are too young to make things up like that. The CDFA are hypocrites because when a doctor reports that someone is sick to the CDFA, and if that person had recently ingested certified raw milk, they automatically shut down the milk business even without evidence that the milk caused the illness. (The milk, in this case, is never the source of illness because the cows are healthy.) On one hand, they overly penalize raw milk producers for things that might cause illness and on the other hand they ignore cases which definitely cause illness by their own hands.

Spraying chemicals on people is a crime, safe or not.

This is an outrage and this is sickening.

It used to be easy to turn a blind eye to government corruption because we could avoid it. You can avoid vaccinations by claiming an exemption. You can avoid polluted soaps and shampoos by buying natural ones, and you can avoid pesticide ridden foods by choosing organic. (In case you are wondering, strawberries and other produce sprayed with Checkmate will still be certified organic by the State, so you won't know you are eating pesticide ridden produce.) But the citizens of Monterey, Santa Cruz, Seaside, Los Lomas and other communities consisting of over 100,000 people who are scheduled to be spray bombed, some beginning today for up to six nights in a row, do not have the choice. Their personal boundaries have been violently violated by the CDFA.

Now, you cannot turn a blind eye anymore to what the government does. We need to acknowledge that these things are wrong, whether we can avoid them or not. When we do not stand up against evil, we affirm it. When we say what is happening is smart, we affirm that the evil doer is good because we do nothing to stop them.

I encourage you, in every way possible, to not sit back here. When you see someone doing wrong, whether it is a relative, a neighbor, or the local government, speak up. We need to stop this juggernaut. It is truly a terrifying experience because I have a pregnant partner and a young child and I have to move away from here to avoid being sprayed, to avoid being force vaccinated with synthetic moth hormone. The last bastion of hope is that the Santa Cruz City Council narrowly voted to sue the criminals doing this. It is unclear whether their lawsuit will be effective.

Checkmate.

The name for the biochemical Checkmate has two meanings. First, to check (stop) mating. Although there is no reliable evidence that it will check mating, for all we know, it could cause the moths to mutate and mate more. The second meaning of checkmate is a position in the game of Chess. This is a position when you have your opponent trapped no matter what move they do. They cannot win so they must resign and lose the game. Ironically, it is not the moths who are in the position of checkmate, but rather the citizens of Monterey, Marina, Pacific Grove, Sand City and Seaside (cities near Carmel and the famous Pebble Beach Golf course). These citizens must literally run, and escape, for the sake of their children from their own homes because a toxic cloud of government corruption is about to rain down upon them. It is these citizens who are in the position of checkmate. The difference here is that losing can mean a chronic disease, illness, and perhaps worse.

What you can do is call your state and federal representatives and encourage them to push through laws that prohibit aerial spraying. Encourage California State Senators and Federal Representatives to engage in a criminal investigation because poisoning people, children, and the elderly is a crime. Just because the people engaged in this work for the government, it doesn't make them immune to our laws. Support 1hope.org, and the City of Santa Cruz, to fight back.

Tell everyone!

Spread this news. Let's tell the whole world the truth about civil rights in the good ole' US of A.

If enough people know, this cause will be greatly advanced. Also, process your feelings about this, the anger, the rage, the terror, and the hatred it brings up. Feel how you want to protect those in the aerial spray path, that inner voice speaking within you saying, “NO! this is wrong, it must stop".

May the criminals face the real consequences of their crimes and be brought to justice. And may the people of Northern California be protected from untested synthetic chemicals forced upon them.

See below for more information, action items, and pesticide ingredients.

More information:

See 1hope.org, www.lbamspray.info, and www.stopthespray.org (You can sign the petition)

Also California State Senator Laird has written an excellent letter, opposing the spraying, citing dozens of unawsererd questions about the CDFA's shameful behavior. This can help you understand the issue better. (democrats.assembly.ca.gov/MEMBERS/A27/moth.htm)

Published Pesticide Ingredients Scheduled For Human Experimentation beginning Wednesday 10/24/07 (There may be other unpublished ones)

polymethylene polyphenyl isocyanate (Pesticide manufacturer Suterra acknowledges this ingredient is used to make Checkmate, but EPA claims ingredient is not in final product)

(E)-11-Tetradecen-1-yl Acetate
(E,E) -9,11 Tetradecadien-1-yl Acetate
Crosslinked polyurea polymer
Butylated Hydroxytoluene
Polyvinyl Alcohol
Tricaprylyl Methyl Ammonium Chloride
Sodium Phosphate
Ammonium Phosphate
1,2-benzisothiozoli-3-one
2-hydroxy-4-n-octyloxybenzophenone

Action List:

The best thing you can do is contact Governor Schwarzenegger, even if you are not a California citizen. Governor Schwarzenegger has the power to stop this. Right now, he clearly supports the program claiming such aerial spraying is necessary. Tell him you are opposed to his need to spray toxic chemicals on children to stop a harmless moth.

GOVERNOR ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER
General information: (916) 445-2841 2841 (press #1, #5, #0)
Fax: (916) 445-4633
Email governor@govmail.ca.gov
Chief of Staff is Susan Kennedy

CA DEPARTMENT OF FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
Public Affairs Officer: (916) 654-0462 or
(800) 491-1899 (press #1, #6)
cdfapublicaffairs@cdfa.ca.gov
Secretary A.G. Kawamura (he makes the final decision on spraying):
akawamura@cdfa.ca.gov
John Connell, the state’s expert in insect eradication: jconnell@cdfa.ca.gov
Steve Lyle (public affairs) in charge of public communication: slyle@cdfa.ca.gov
Nancy Lungren (spokesperson for Kawamura): nlungren@cdfa.ca.gov

CA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
General Information: (916) 558-1784
Director, Mark B. Horton, MD, MSPH: (916) 558-1700, mark.horton@cdph.ca.gov
Kevin Reilly, Deputy Director: Kevin.Reilly@cdph.ca.gov
Online feedback/email:
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programservices/ ... fault.aspx

ASSEMBLYMAN JOHN LAIRD (strongly opposes current spray plans)
(831) 649-2832 or (916) 319-2127
Assemblymember.Laird@assembly.ca.gov

SENATOR ABEL MALDONADO
(831) 657-6315 or (916) 651-4015 or go to his web page to send him an email

REPRESENTATIVE SAM FARR
c/o Alec.Arago@mail.house.gov

DIANE FEINSTEIN
c/o daniel_chen@feinstein.senate.gov


About the author
Rami Nagel is a father who cares about the way we affect each other, our children, and our planet through our lifestyle choices. His health background is in hands-on energy healing, Hatha & Bhakti yoga and the Pathwork.
Rami is author of several health resources, http://www.healingourchildren.net,http://www.preconceptionhealth.org, http://www.curetoothdecay.com, and http://www.yourreturn.org.
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Post by Disco_Destroyer »

On a different note I'm sure its the Flea Treatment that has given my 2 cats liver failure :shock: :(

I don't agree with any of this spraying stuff but it is no different to Locust Control, as long as man believes he is on a par with God we'll see cullings of all discriptions, just look whats instore for our Badgers.

Just for something silly that always brings a smile:- [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOxR7rTYuSI[/youtube]
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Post by David WJ Sherlock »

Disco_Destroyer wrote:On a different note I'm sure its the Flea Treatment that has given my 2 cats liver failure :shock: :(

I don't agree with any of this spraying stuff but it is no different to Locust Control, as long as man believes he is on a par with God we'll see cullings of all discriptions, just look whats instore for our Badgers.

Just for something silly that always brings a smile:- [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOxR7rTYuSI[/youtube]
Now DD. You are still claiming you do not beleive in "chemtrails". On his thread. "Five A Day=Chemtrails my ass" Disco Destroyer seems to run the claim, this is not a real issue, even though we have shown him the facts. http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=11673 Now come on DD. If they will kill 3.000 of there own in one morning. Kill millions world wide. Why would they not poison their own with spraying.
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Because they still need a healthy fit army to fight their damn wars, I don't know how I can make it clearer.
Experimentation on small sections of society yes, largescale depopulation no!
They have the power to create genetic disease why taint thier own food chain also?? Only the most paranoid would believe they'd risk killing themselves in the process.
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Post by David WJ Sherlock »

Disco_Destroyer wrote:Because they still need a healthy fit army to fight their damn wars, I don't know how I can make it clearer.
Experimentation on small sections of society yes, largescale depopulation no!
They have the power to create genetic disease why taint thier own food chain also?? Only the most paranoid would believe they'd risk killing themselves in the process.
If they delete 95% of the population. And bearing it in mind they have also isolated the the Arab gene. Their will be no one to fight. Therefore they will need no massive army. From the guys who made the C Trails film on the other thread say they have designed the drug that keeps them immune.
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Post by Disco_Destroyer »

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
Disco_Destroyer wrote:Because they still need a healthy fit army to fight their damn wars, I don't know how I can make it clearer.
Experimentation on small sections of society yes, largescale depopulation no!
They have the power to create genetic disease why taint thier own food chain also?? Only the most paranoid would believe they'd risk killing themselves in the process.
If they delete 95% of the population. And bearing it in mind they have also isolated the the Arab gene. Their will be no one to fight. Therefore they will need no massive army.
I think they would need their world Government in place before that wouldn't you? I agree they maybe fast tracking it but still anything could happen, are you suggesting Putin won't act if Iran is hit and so on??
If world government is close do you think China will play along, under white western rule? If they are going along at all its because they see a way to take over and so on!!
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Post by David WJ Sherlock »

Disco_Destroyer wrote:
David WJ Sherlock wrote:
Disco_Destroyer wrote:Because they still need a healthy fit army to fight their damn wars, I don't know how I can make it clearer.
Experimentation on small sections of society yes, largescale depopulation no!
They have the power to create genetic disease why taint thier own food chain also?? Only the most paranoid would believe they'd risk killing themselves in the process.
If they delete 95% of the population. And bearing it in mind they have also isolated the the Arab gene. Their will be no one to fight. Therefore they will need no massive army.
I think they would need their world Government in place before that wouldn't you? I agree they maybe fast tracking it but still anything could happen, are you suggesting Putin won't act if Iran is hit and so on??
If world government is close do you think China will play along, under white western rule? If they are going along at all its because they see a way to take over and so on!!
One i did not even mention Putin. Also i did not notice your "Paranoid" reference in the erlier post. You cannot suggest i am paranoid. Our research is on the basis of much scientific evidence. I have to doubt the validity of truther who accuses other thruthers of being paranoid. That is how the establisment and those who have not woke up view us and promote. Which are you DD?
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1stly the Paranoid comment was not intentioally pointed at you.
I resent being forced to believe every conspiracy theory out there just because I use this Forum.
You have done nothing to answer my questions? Have you even had the decency to look at why I believe what I do??
and to add another point where is this scientific research all I keep getting directed to are pretty pictures.
Our research is on the basis of much scientific evidence
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Post by David WJ Sherlock »

Disco_Destroyer wrote:1stly the Paranoid comment was not intentioally pointed at you.
I resent being forced to believe every conspiracy theory out there just because I use this Forum.
You have done nothing to answer my questions? Have you even had the decency to look at why I believe what I do??
and to add another point where is this scientific research all I keep getting directed to are pretty pictures.
Our research is on the basis of much scientific evidence
Oh my God. I have presented you with files on the expose on the forum. you are becoming typical of what i expect to encounter on such forums. I have not been indecent at any point. I have as I say furnished you with evidence of addmission to testing plus links to the sites which back this up. You however, have not. Present me with you evidence and do not pour petty scorn. Your Paranoid comments are pointed to our community which is me and them. If you call them paranoid, you must therfore tar me with the same brush, and millions alike. Show me your evidence, which I will peruse with an open mind.

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/hos.html
http://members.aol.com/doewatch/chemtrails.html
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/01/309675.shtml
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I have not seen these links before, if you posted them to me I have missed them. I will look in more detail later, but thanks.

Sorry but I don't see the science in this claim from your second link =D
The end point, if the poles were totally melted, is the oceans rise in height by some 230 ft.
That sounds as scientific as Ickarus or the story of Noah's Ark
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Post by paul wright »

Anyway the badgers video is great, just as chemtrails are real.
Thanks for that, DD
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;) lol there are loads of the damn things now just search them on youtube :D
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Why Is Discussing 'Trails Uncomfortable for some Truthers?

Post by Stefan »

A good friend and fellow truther said to me last night that I was making him uncomfortable talking about "Chemtrails" - the implication being it was an "out there" conspiracy theory, and I was straying from the "facts only" approach of the WAC group we are both active in. Well firstly - I was speaking to him and am not proposing it be WAC material, or 9/11 TC material - but is it really not an issue based wholley on fact?

This morning I walked to the supermarket and, again, stood outside watching yet another spraying campaign right above my head - "why" I thought "is something so 'out there' when it can be confirmed so easily with the two eyes we were born with?

Condensation cannot turn into clouds.

Do we all agree with this basic fact?

All that's needed is you use your eyes and realise that to deny that some of the trails made by planes are not condensation is possibly the most irrational positions which can be held.

I left my friend's house under a clear blue sky and spotted two potentail 'trails (all trails are potential unless you see them being made - long thin clouds do exist) above my head and a third being made "Is that a "chemtrail" then?" she asked me "Let's watch and see if it fades" I answered.

It didn't - it stayed and spread out into a band of cloud, while several more planes crossed the same area of sky over the next few minutes - each leaving similar trails. When we got to the supermarket that whole area of sky was absolutley crammed with trails "By the time we get out of the super market - that whole area of sky - blue sky now - will be covered in a thin film of cloud". We went in and got breakfast and on the way out - yes - the whole area of sky was now covered by the "clouds" which had started as trails from planes.

Then over on the other side of us, plaes were already starting to spray. By the time we got home we'd counted 5 new trails, the first already a band of cloud by the time the fith had laid its trail and disappeared.

So where is the 'wackiness' in telling people to look out for this?

1) We don't know what they are.
No one knows the purpose of these trails or why this is happening, making it a dead end in terms of being a possible campaigning issue.

True.

2) The very name its self is speculative
Now I stand open to being corrected on this - but as I understand it the term chemtrails came from a US document on new DoD technology - do we know it was referring to this phenomona - or could their "chemtrails" be a completley different thing to ours? If I'm not wrong on this count (which I may be) I'd rather just call them something else.

3) It will discredit us to speak about it
Well as I said I'm not suggesting that this becomes a part of WAC or 9/11 truth campaign material - it certainly shouldn't - but should this lead to it being a "taboo" or a subject we should censor our selves on.

Why this subject has become one I'm talking about more is that it is so easy to demonstrate -

In the past few weeks I have spoken with several completley "non-conspiracy open" friends of mine about this, some have "humoured me" some have laughed at first, and some have said it was interesting but they weren't sold.

All have come back and admitted that I was right, after following the simple instruction to observe what real contrails look like and then to look out for those campaigns. If you live in Lodon, these days, it doesn't take very long before you get to see this happening.

Now I don't propose any answers for what these are - in fact I've said to each of the people I've brought this up wih that it could just as easily have a benevolent as a nefarious motive - but that doesn't make it a useless issue -

The fact is that the government denies this is happening and it clearly is is something that can be established with someone very quickly and easily. Once people realise this they may be more open to logical rather than conditioned approaches to other issues like 9/11 and 7/7.

Because it's so simple to prove this empirically - why should it be forbidden fruit? For people completly uninitated with any kind of non MSM "truth" I'm finding it an easier sarting block that complex explanations of free fall speed and pulverised concrete.

Or have I just been hanging around with "Loons" to much? :wink:
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Post by John White »

I think its down to the simple fact that there is a void of real information, hence the only thing that can be grasped with chemtrails is that its all speculation. The fact that its photo evidence for them exisitng, and thats it, makes people feel insecure and uncomfortable either considering them, or being willing to talk to others about them: plus of course the very existance of Chemtrails indicates a massive operation for unknown purpose, and that is frightening
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Post by mr nice »

Your right Stefan people seem to find this very obvious phenomenon hard to deal with.
This morning the skys over south london were covered with a very dense criss crossing pattern,it seems as if most people are unwilling to accept that this is deliberate mostly for the reason JW gives ie nobody has any real evidence or a clear idea of what this is,who is behind it and what it is supposed to achieve.
The internet is full of speculation some of it is very shall we say "creative" now while I personally try not to go in for wild speculation I do feel this is more important than most people would admit and it also makes me feel very uncomfortable when I see very heavy activity like this morning.......
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Post by Mark Gobell »

I saw the same today and have photographed it all.

As I was doing so I asked my neighbour what all that was up in the sky.

(We live a few miles from Stansted Airport)

He looked up and said.

Airplanes.

That's what it is. Airplanes.

Yeah I know. I said. But what is it ?

Maybe it's a new flight path.

Then carried on to the pub. . .
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Stefan - you raise some very interesting points.

Generally, I was under the impression it is said that contrails do form clouds under the right conditions -

http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guide ... cntrl.rxml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

- and being as they're water vapour this seens intuitively plausible. But my personal grasp of nephology is rather slim to say the least so I really don't know how they're 'supposed' to behave.
I think it's just kind of what Mark said - planes innit? It's what they do. Haven't you seen it before or something?! Pointing out the mundane may actually be something weird probably seems particularly wacky.

And if they're spraying owt, they're spraying it over rich and poor, prince and pleb alike.

I admit, I've always been sceptical of this chemtrails stuff, but the other morning I was having a fag in the back yard and saw this particularly mad trail. The sky was wispy cloud hazy, like you get when there's lots of chem/contrails about, but there was one in particular...It was obviously a trail, you could see the shape clearly but it looked (as much as you can meaningfully estimate in the sky) really low - you could see lots of detail in the patterns - and it was moving consistently across the sky in the light breeze, keeping its shape perfectly. It looked like a massive snake drifting low over the rooftops. We get a reasonable amount of air traffic as there's several airports in a thirty mile or so radius, but don't think I've ever seen one that looked so weird.
Condensed water vapour lookin' weird or shady spraying - how am I really to know?
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Re: Why Is Discussing 'Trails Uncomfortable for some Truther

Post by Alex_V »

Stefan wrote:Condensation cannot turn into clouds.
I think that's misinterpreting the issue. Isn't the standard explanation that contrails, given the right conditions, can linger and spread in the sky? If you accept that 'fact', then chemtrails are no longer an issue.
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Post by Mark Gobell »

It would be interesting to know about the what the skies are like in the rest of the world.

I only found out the other day that MRSA & C Dificile seem to be in quite a few countries now.

And there was I believing that MRSA in the UK is down to poor hygiene standards.
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Post by telecasterisation »

I would say that people are uncomfortable with chemtrails due to the blatant nature of the act - it's right there in front of you in plain sight, nothing covert or hidden and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

You can't get up and take samples, you can't prove what it is or why it's being done. It's the equivalent of being given the middle finger, only it is four miles long and right across the sky and you can't gesture or shout back. Those doing it are virtually saying 'Look at us, look what we're doing, what'ya gonna do about it?

Like being handcuffed to a lamp post whilst someone trashes your new car at the other end of the street - generally people don't like this type of scenario, helpless and inadequate, they look the other way.
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Post by marky 54 »

telecasterisation wrote:I would say that people are uncomfortable with chemtrails due to the blatant nature of the act - it's right there in front of you in plain sight, nothing covert or hidden and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

You can't get up and take samples, you can't prove what it is or why it's being done. It's the equivalent of being given the middle finger, only it is four miles long and right across the sky and you can't gesture or shout back. Those doing it are virtually saying 'Look at us, look what we're doing, what'ya gonna do about it?

Like being handcuffed to a lamp post whilst someone trashes your new car at the other end of the street - generally people don't like this type of scenario, helpless and inadequate, they look the other way.
i think you have it spot on. not that im saying i know 100% what they are, but some people are just to afraid to even consider it or look for themselves and question it.

but it is certainly there and will not go away by ignoring it.
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Post by uselesseater »

I was sceptical about this but after obsurving some in action, and over time I definitely think they do not behave as contrails used to do.

I see lots of lumpy ones over Leeds and we have also had Awax flying in circles in the sky too recently.

But at a glance I think it does have classicly 'out-there' profile like, 'dont drink the water' but then you shouldn't drink the water.
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Post by Stefan »

Dogsmilk,

Well that site posted is the first bit of relatively sane sounding debunking I have heard - most sites which try to "deal" with chemtrails do so by insulting the people who talk about them and leaving the claims far from their argument - by the strength of the "debunking" you can normally get a good gauge of the value of the hypothesis.

Like you, I'm not a meteorologist, but I find the explanation difficult to go along with - for a couple of reasons based on my own personal empirical observation:

1) The other day out side of work I was having a cigarette with some work mates and some trails were being laid - I started talking about them not being right and at first they were laughing at me "look and the skies man! Look at the skies! White lines!" and so on, but in terms of a perfect piece of synchronicity on the other side of the sky a normal con trail was being formed. Now this plane was a lot higher than the two we'd just watched leaving the thick, milky trails which by now were turning into clouds - higher would suggest colder right? But just like every other con-trail I'd observed the trail was disappearing as it went along.

2) Before the first time I saw a campaign of 'trails I had been observing planes for a few weeks - every time I saw one it looked the same - a thin semi transparent trail behind a high altitude plane - it was always of a limited length and faded as it went along. The only time I see trails which act in a different way (what we call chemtrails) it is in a campaign - after the first plane more and more will come over a short space of time over the same piece of sky, crossing over each other so that eventually that whole area is covered with a film of cloud. Now the first time I saw this it was at the station I go to work at every morning - I can tell you for 100% certain that amount of activity is not normal because I am there every single week day at the same time.

This is what gets me - and don't get me wrong - I don't close the book on your explanation I'd love nothing more than for there to be a simple explanation for it - as I said it my first post: it's hardly a position to hold which will win friends and influence people, even in 911 Truth circles - but it just doesn't sit.

I see contrails all the time - every day they look the same when it's a single plane on a flight path - but when I see these other thick permanent trails which turn into clouds there are dozens of them going over the same area in a short space of time - and how do I settle the fact that occasionally, during a campaign you will spot a perfectly normal contrail fading across another part of the sky?

As for "they're spraying it over rich and poor" well that statement kind of assumes the "mind control/attack on personal health" angle which I find incredibly unlikely and have never proposed - I don't know what the purpose is and for all our paranoia it could even have a non aggressive or even benevolent purpose - but what it does do, if it is true, is demonstrate that very significant operations are being carried out right in front of our eyes which the government denies the existence of.
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Post by karlos »

Stefan - i agree with you. Trails is seen as a wacko concept and i too used to look upon it as nut job stuff. Until i saw it with my own eyes too. I heard a plane flying overhead even though i dont live in a flight path of any airport and exactly as i had seen on several videos over the next few minutes a grid like pattern appeared with eventually filled up the sky with a waffle like cloud.
Recently people like Arnold Swarzenneger have virtually confirmed chemical spraying occurs.
this really is a topic that needs to be brought to the forefront because whatever people may try and say it really is happening.

Well written article Stefan.
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Post by John White »

German TV chemtrail report (english subtitles)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVc9GX5K_As[/youtube]
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Post by marky 54 »

John White wrote:German TV chemtrail report (english subtitles)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVc9GX5K_As[/youtube]
nice find.
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Post by nrmis »

This was being discussed here...
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... c&start=30

Somebody suggested a forum that apparently discussed this but I couldn't find anything on it. PPRUNE forum?

I noticed from that thread that there seemed to be days where trails were visible countrywide and was wondering if there was meteoroligical info available that might provide a possible explanation.
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Post by John White »

Hi gang. Just to mention i've split the smoking discussion off from here and given it its own thread, so that this thread can get back to the topic of chemtrails

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=12183
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Not quite chemtrail .Big fire in London

Post by fish5133 »

Not chemtrail but found this suspicious.

http://www.orange.co.uk/news/topstories ... icle=index

How can an empty disused warehouse due for demolition the next day burn with such ferocity.

Simplest answer is that news report is wrong and that it wasnt empty but ??
ITN news said some asbestos was present. Now that costs a lot of money to get rid of PROPERLY.
Wonder if we are going to be shown pictures of how this single storey steel framed shed collapsed due to fire !!
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