22Jul05 Jean Charles De Menezes Stockwell tube train murder

[guzman]

SO12 were the Special Branch.
SO13 were the Anti-terrorist Branch.
They have now been combined into SO15, the Counter-Terrorism Command.
The specialist firearms unit is CO19.

Who directs CO19?
The Metropolitan Police?

A joint operation on paper but in practice one must override the other.

The local bobby cannot be in charge of terror subjects.

Staraker has argued the anti-terrorist police are no different from the normal police. So why did a specialist unit bump off De Menezes according to the OCT?

According to the London Major Incident Plan, Sixth Edition seniority of the scene or operation is determined by the Gold-Silver-Bronze structure. The Gold-Silver-Bronze overides the rank structure and is either assigned or automatic, i.e. the first officer with a rank of inspector or above controls the scene.

Gold – Strategic
Establishes strategic objectives and overall management framework. Ensuring long-term resourcing expertise
Silver – Tactical
Formulation of the tactics
Bronze – Operational
Control resources at the scene

MIM 7th Edition (pdf)

The Silver Commander was DCI Clarke, officially the Gold commander was John McDowall but the Designated Senior Officer, Commander Cressida Dick, in effect performed the role of Gold Commander.

I don't think there's any difference in seniority between the same rank of more specialist units and regular police officers. The prefix of Detective just signifies that you belong to either Special Branch or the CID.

Dick belonged to the Specialist Crime Directorate at the time and was running the operation from New Scotland Yard. Silver Commander, DCI Clarke was travelling with the Specialist Firearms Officers. Stockwell One doesn't touch much upon the communication between Silver and CO19 or the briefings that took place before the operation. I imagine though that he would have had a substantial impact on how they would interpret any future commands to 'stop' a suspect. As CO19 were playing 'catch-up' they should have been briefed on how to seperate friend, including fellow surveillance officers, from foe. IIRC, Stockwell One doesn't go into this.

[guzman]

De Menezes officer knew he wasn't bomber
By Caroline Gammell
Last Updated: 1:30am BST 13/10/2007

The Metropolitan Police commander who ordered the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes knew the Brazilian was not one of the wanted July 21 bombers some time before he was killed, the Old Bailey heard yesterday.

Jean Charles de Menezes Surveillance officers following the 27-year-old formally identified him as not being Hussain Osman, who they were hunting over the failed suicide attempts on London's transport network the day before.

Commander Cressida Dick, who oversaw Operation Theseus, ordered the surveillance Grey Team to stop Mr de Menezes and question him about the area in which he lived.

He had been spotted in Scotia Road in Tulse Hill, south London, which was linked to 28-year-old Osman after the terrorist's gym card was found bearing the same address.

But despite being negatively identified "in minutes", Mr de Menezes was followed from his home, onto a bus and into Stockwell Tube station where he was killed on July 22, 2005.

Cdr Dick ordered a "hard stop" to be carried out by firearms officers after anti-terror and surveillance teams failed to stop him, the court heard.

Details of the identification came from a surveillance co-ordinator giving evidence during the health and safety trial against the Metropolitan Police.

The officer, known only as "Owen", told the court: "There was a point when the senior management group knew that it wasn't Nettletip (Osman's codename). I believe that came across on the radio.

"I can't say what the exact words were but there was a discussion about the situation on the bus and they wanted SO13 anti-terror police to stop the subject and establish intelligence about the residents and flats at Scotia Road. Cressida Dick ordered officers to stop Mr de Menezes

"If he lived next to the subject he may have been able to tell us things of relevance. It later emerged that they (surveillance) had continued and Cressida Dick asked why the unidentified individual was still being followed if it was not Nettletip."

Clare Montgomery, QC, prosecuting, asked: "Was he identified as positively not Nettletip?"

Owen replied: "Yes, the direction was for the surveillance teams to stop and for the anti-terror officers to gather the intelligence about the block of flats.

"After three or four minutes Cressida Dick and I were aware that the surveillance team had not pulled back and they were still following the male. Her belief was it definitely wasn't the suspect."

Owen said that at no time during the operation was Mr de Menezes, who came to Britain in 2002, "positively identified" as Osman.

A second surveillance officer, identified as "Pat", told jurors how it had been difficult to communicate over the racket in the control room.

"People were shouting to make themselves heard," he said. "I had difficulty getting people's attention because I couldn't leave my seat."

He said there had been trouble with the radio link to the undercover and firearms teams: "There seemed to be problems with the system, but that is not uncommon."

Interestingly Stockwell One mentions that the SO13 debrief team that was tasked with questioning any subjects leaving the property were stood down at 9:55 following a positive identification of the subject as being the suspect. The role of SO13 receives very little scrutiny in SW1.

Another contradiction comes when the barrister for the defense makes the statement that the officers were putting their lives on the line for the public. Yet we're led to believe in SW1 that because the police weren't prepared to put their lives on the line in order to conduct a proper raid on the flat at Scotia Road was precisely why they conducted a surveillance operation instead. So, officers contrasted a raid that would probably take only five minutes until the scene was controlled with a situation where police officers and the public were in the company of the 'worse case scenario' [not Jean Charles de Menezes] for twenty minutes or more.

[keithm]

does anyone know if jean charles de menezes worked in the U.S prior to 9/11.

i was just wandering,him being an electrician,

is it possible he was part of a team that rigged the twin towers and wtc7 and they were worried he may talk.

7/7 and the terrorist threat being used as a diversion and perfect excuse to eliminate him.

[conspiracy analyst]

According to the London Major Incident Plan, Sixth Edition seniority of the scene or operation is determined by the Gold-Silver-Bronze structure. The Gold-Silver-Bronze overides the rank structure and is either assigned or automatic, i.e. the first officer with a rank of inspector or above controls the scene.

Gold – Strategic
Establishes strategic objectives and overall management framework. Ensuring long-term resourcing expertise
Silver – Tactical
Formulation of the tactics
Bronze – Operational
Control resources at the scene

MIM 7th Edition (pdf)

The Silver Commander was DCI Clarke, officially the Gold commander was John McDowall but the Designated Senior Officer, Commander Cressida Dick, in effect performed the role of Gold Commander.

I don't think there's any difference in seniority between the same rank of more specialist units and regular police officers. The prefix of Detective just signifies that you belong to either Special Branch or the CID.

Dick belonged to the Specialist Crime Directorate at the time and was running the operation from New Scotland Yard. Silver Commander, DCI Clarke was travelling with the Specialist Firearms Officers. Stockwell One doesn't touch much upon the communication between Silver and CO19 or the briefings that took place before the operation. I imagine though that he would have had a substantial impact on how they would interpret any future commands to 'stop' a suspect. As CO19 were playing 'catch-up' they should have been briefed on how to seperate friend, including fellow surveillance officers, from foe. IIRC, Stockwell One doesn't go into this.

There was no Major Incident Plan in reality.
Following a bloke who gets on a bus and goes to a tube may be classified as such but then anything can be classified as such.

Looking at a birdwatcher in a park could be reclassified as a Major Incident Plan to take away responsibility and pass it on to the firearm squad after allegedly asserting he looked suspicious because he may have been feeding swans in a park lake....

[QuitTheirClogs]

Are witnesses consciously or subconsciously having their memories altered?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7457653.stm

If someone was killed in front of you would you remember what happened? Many experts are challenging the view that eyewitnesses recounting what they saw is the best way of tapping their memory. Some think brain scans could be the way forward.

...a significant proportion of people seem to be highly suggestible and will quite readily change what they remember if given appropriate cues.

In one famous study, Dutch researchers questioned people about a 1992 accident in which a cargo plane had crashed into a block of flats near Schiphol Airport.

Ten months later, they conducted a survey asking if people remembered seeing the TV film of the plane hitting the building. More than half of the respondents said they had. A later study found that the proportion had gone up to two-thirds.

The problem is, there is no TV film of the accident. Asking the question had itself apparently changed people's memories.

A similar phenomenon happened with the shooting in London of the suspected terrorist Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Underground Station.

Initially witnesses claimed that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers as he ran from police.

A police spokesman said on the day that, "his clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions", and that he ran onto the train after police had issued warnings. These claims were incorrect.

But people still express surprise when told he wasn't wearing a large coat and are confused about how he entered the tube because the inaccurate reports became cemented into individual memories.

So are witnesses consciously or subconsciously having their memories altered?

There is little data available regarding the extent of suggestive questioning of eyewitnesses. One British study using actual interviews indicates that approximately one out of every six questions posed to eyewitnesses was in some way suggestive.

The police say they are already aware of the risks and do their utmost to avoid them.

[TonyGosling]

Interesting video of an SAS operation.
MO is to make it look like an ordinary police operation if at all possible.
Jean Charles de Menezes
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WPsDaoBSEo[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WPsDaoBSEo

[TonyGosling]

Anonymity for the guilty?

48 police officers will be hidden behind a screen to protect the identities of the guilty - ridiculous - not an inquest at all

Apologies folks but we have to go to Australia for this story.......

Tube's shooting cops to remain anonymous
Article from: The Courier-Mail

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 49,00.html

September 23, 2008 12:01am

ALMOST 50 police officers are set to give evidence anonymously as the long-awaited inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes begins in London.

The shooting of the innocent electrician, mistaken by police as a suicide bomber, is being examined in a room at the Oval cricket ground in London.

The two officers who shot the Brazilian seven times in the head at point blank range in a Tube carriage on July 22, 2005, will give their versions of events publicly for the first time.

But their identities and those of the other police involved will be protected, outraging campaigners who are also fearful that major elements of the inquest will be held in private.

Former High Court judge Sir Michael Wright is presiding over the case, with 11 jurors to decide a verdict ranging from accidental death to unlawful killing.

The future of Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair hangs in the balance, with adverse findings predicted to mark the end of his career.

Sir Ian - who is already under pressure over racism allegations from a fellow officer - wrote to staff warning that the inquest would bring intense publicity for the force.

The inquest is focusing on why de Menezes was allowed to board a bus before arriving at Stockwell Tube station, the legality of police actions and the Met's shoot-to-kill policy.

A total of 47 officers - including the "shooters", who have been code-named C2 and C12 - have been given permission to give evidence from behind a curtain.

The Jean Charles de Menezes Family Campaign issued a weekend statement saying: "While hopeful about what the inquest may bring, deep-seated concerns remain over how much evidence will be heard in public and what attempts the Metropolitan Police will make to keep what happened secret.

"We continue to call for such blanket anonymity to be lifted as we believe it undermines the key principles of transparency and accountability and hinders public scrutiny of public officials," the statement said.

[fish5133]

The report I read in the mail or Express said the shooters actually had Charles restrained with his hands pinned behind his back BEFORE they put 7 bullets in his head. Obviously by restraining his hands they must have some belief he was then incapable of letting of a bomb.

[Disco_Destroyer]

I expect he was chosen because he had no baggage ie. less comeback in court as he was an illegal alien
A safer option against targeting a national with all the protection of the courts. Even if he was a suspect as they claimed mistaken identity.
It was just an excersice in fear that is all, your leaders mean business.

[dewstru]

Ken livingstone's part in Menezes assassination?

I talk of course of the hated (by me at least) TFL Oyster card, did it identify and betray Jean Charles Menezes that fateful day in 2005? I expect this has been debated before but it just came to me the other day.It's amazing what we put up with in this country, having our every journey recorded on some sinister database somewhere. Am i right in saying you don't get a reciept with every TFL oyster card transaction? surely the data protection act stipulates YOU SHOULD FFS!?! The illegal Iraq invasion ,chemtrails, ID cards, 9/11, 7/7 ...we just lie down and take it, is there something in the water?

Boris is an imbecile BUT I say NEVER A-KEN!

[dewstru]

I just KNEW Tony would edit my post, it's a compulsion with him already! I think I may have stumbled on proof the assassins knew who they were after as all they had to do to identify him was tap into the oyster card database, will the "prosecution" in the enquiry persue this?

[TonyGosling]

I haven't edited your post - I merged it into the previous topic.

And took the trouble to preserve your headline by cutting and pasting it into at the top of the post.

If you don't want to come across as a shill please PM me next time.

I just KNEW Tony would edit my post, it's a compulsion with him already! I think I may have stumbled on proof the assassins knew who they were after as all they had to do to identify him was tap into the oyster card database, will the "prosecution" in the enquiry persue this?

[dewstru]

Edited/merged...same difference Tone. I started a topic trying to expose the BBC(hawkphtt!) broadcasting (Foxnews-style)evidence of David Shayler's apparent mental breakdown for laughs and you merged it into an obscure Shayler thread...then you changed my header about the Independent trying to be clever re. the 9/11 truth, so to date you've edited 3/8ths of my posts.

'Shill' is fighting talk, has my expressing sympathy for Dr. Judy Wood's 911WTC theories upset you perhaps?

[dewstru]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqytiKnWdNI

How did you keep your cool with Aaronovitch Tony? RESPECT!

[xmasdale]

http://news.aol.co.uk/menezes-marksman- ... 9136615376

Menezes marksman accused of lying

Last Updated: Wednesday, 29 October 2008, 02:46 GMT- Search: De Menezes inquest

Menezes marksman accused of lying

A police marksman was accused of lying to explain why he shot Jean Charles de Menezes.

The highly-trained firearms specialist, using the code name C2, revealed how his gun became jammed as he unloaded six bullets at the innocent Brazilian from point-blank range.

But Michael Mansfield QC, for the de Menezes family, claimed C2's evidence that he heard Mr de Menezes was "definitely our man" had been fabricated.

Mr de Menezes died on July 22 2005 after being shot seven times in the head by C2 and his colleague, C12, who both mistook him for failed suicide bomber Hussain Osman.

Evidence from C2 marked an end to a lengthy wait for the de Menezes family and the Justice4Jean group, who have campaigned to hear evidence from the gunmen since he was shot dead.

Both C2 and C12 spoke of their sorrow for the family and revealed they think about the tragedy "every day" as they came face to face with his mother, brother and cousins for the first time. But, speaking outside court, the Brazilian's mother, Maria Otone de Menezes, 63, accused C2 of being "very cold", adding: "He may have apologised but it certainly didn't seem like he meant it."

C2, who said he was convinced Mr de Menezes was a terrorist about to set off a bomb, told how he never heard the instruction to go to "state red", meaning the firearms teams should intervene to detain the suspect. And he said his Glock pistol "malfunctioned" at the critical moment he opened fire at Stockwell Tube station, south London.

C2, who also revealed he only shouted "armed police" after deciding to shoot, said: "At the time I fired I believed that I, and everyone else, was about to die. From my position I knew that I could not access the brain stem. I could not be certain that of immediate incapacitation. I had to ensure that life was extinct also because of the fact I had a stoppage. I could not be certain if I had lost rounds in the process."

When asked if he had to reload the weapon by hand, he said: "Yes, sir, because of the fact it had malfunctioned."

Mr Mansfield later claimed C2 had only one thing in mind as he stepped inside the station - to "shoot this man as quickly as possible".

Last Updated: Wednesday, 29 October 2008, 06:46 GMT

[Pikey]

Last weeks coverage of the trial on the BBC news indicated that the officer had shot CDM in the head three times.

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of the truth is that he was shot in the head seven times.

I am yet to read an account of how and why CDM was shot in the head seven times by a civilised and professionally trained police force .

[xmasdale]

Edited/merged...same difference Tone. I started a topic trying to expose the BBC(hawkphtt!) broadcasting (Foxnews-style)evidence of David Shayler's apparent mental breakdown for laughs and you merged it into an obscure Shayler thread...then you changed my header about the Independent trying to be clever re. the 9/11 truth, so to date you've edited 3/8ths of my posts.

'Shill' is fighting talk, has my expressing sympathy for Dr. Judy Wood's 911WTC theories upset you perhaps?

It is very important for us all to avoid being provocative to those fellow 9/11 Truth campaigners with whom we disagree about details. The movement in the Britain has now crystalised into various streams of thought, represented by:

Reopen 9/11, Whole Truth Coalition, We Are Change, All Faiths for 9/11 Truth, All Faiths Against Terrorism.

This can be a strength if we treat each other with respect and recognise that perfectly sincere people can have reasonable differences of opinion about both what actually happened and about what the best strategy is to expose the lies we have been told. To accuse each other of being shills (goverment agents) plays right into the hands of those agents who seek to get us all quarrelling with each other.

Indeed those who make such accusations are as a result themselves liable to be suspected of being shills. The best policy in my opinion is, whatever your suspicions are, never to accuse any other colleague in the movement of being a shill unless you have incontrovertable proof. In my experience of five years in this movement I have never come across such proof so I keep my mouth shut about my suspicions.

Of course there are shills among us, but we can't prove who they are.

This movement will win by basing what it says on empirical evidence, not on suspicion and speculation.

Noel

[Disco_Destroyer]

Police 'misled Menezes pathologist'
A pathologist was misled by police into believing Jean Charles de Menezes "vaulted" over a ticket barrier before he was shot dead, an inquest has heard.

Dr Kenneth Shorrock, who carried out post-mortem examinations after Mr de Menezes was killed, wrongly recorded in his notes that the Brazilian jumped over a barrier before "stumbling" down an escalator in the moments before officers opened fire.

He said he was given the false information during a "walk-through" with officers at Stockwell Tube station, south London, in the hours after the shooting.

When asked why there were "significant errors" in his initial report, he replied: "This was what was told to me. What happened at that time was that there were a lot of officers present and we were taken through.

"I did not write anything down. I did not make any note of who told me what - but, at the next opportunity that I had, I got my Dictaphone."

He told a jury at the Oval cricket ground, south London, that "it was a long day" but rejected suggestions he was influenced by media reports, insisting he had made the notes before he had seen any news items.

Police marksmen shot Mr de Menezes seven times in the head at point-blank range on a train carriage on July 22 2005.

He had been mistaken for one of the terrorists behind the previous day's failed suicide attacks on the capital.

Dr Shorrock was speaking before Retired Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick was due to take to the witness box.

Mr Paddick, who unsuccessfully ran for election as the Liberal Democrat candidate for London Mayor in May, questioned Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair's account of when he learned his officers had killed an innocent man.

http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp- ... d=10682299

[dewstru]

Further to what I said earlier about JCM's killers knowing who they had got as they would obviously have hacked into the Oyster card database while tailing him, it would have also shown whether or not JCM vaulted the barrier or swiped his card FFS! Hasn't this occurred to barrister Mansfield?

[dewstru]

It has gone VERY quiet on the Menezes inquiry front lately

[simplesimon]

Who would have thought?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7760684.stm

[Stefan]

Disgusted is the only word I can muster.

[dewstru]

Disgusted is not the word! they knew who they were tailing,they must have hacked into the tfl oyster database, he knew something and had to be eliminated.

[TonyGosling]

The judge is trying to sow seeds of division and pull the wool over the jury's eyes.

They can deliver any verdict they want.

[John White]

An outrage

[chek]

The judge is trying to sow seeds of division and pull the wool over the jury's eyes.

They can deliver any verdict they want.

Agreed.
A judge's direction is not an order (though it may be designed to seem so to the uninitiated).

I wonder how many jurists would have popped for unlawful killing?
Gien the facts exposed to date, that seems the only available logical verdict in a fair and just world.

(Cue hollow laughter).

[fish5133]

Lawful killlig or open verdict? Now how on earth could the jurors arrive at a "lawful killing" The judge has basically said it can only be an "open verdict" Whatever that means.

Mr de Menezes died on July 22 2005 after being shot seven times in the head by C2 and his colleague, C12, who both mistook him for failed suicide bomber Hussain Osman.

Do we know if C2 C12 had actually seen pictures of Hussain Osman ? you cant mistake somebody for someone else if you have never seen the "someone else"
Just a thought

[uncontrolledexperiment]

De Menezes coroner rules out unlawful verdict:

“I so direct you the jury to consider how economical the police were in shooting Mr De Menezes only seven times in the head, saving the taxpayer the burden of extra spent rounds.

The fact that 17 passengers on the tube train did not hear the police shout any warnings, should not mislead you into thinking the police did not shout. When people are absorbed in reading a particularly stimulating novel it is easy to miss the shout of 'STOP, ARMED POLICE!'

Even if the police officers had not shouted a warning, that would not constitute an unlawful killing. A verdict of unlawful killing could only be allowed if you were in a free society where you could decide that a specific officer had committed murder or manslaughter.

I would like to remind you that British police are still the best in the world at carrying out awfully lawful killings and cover ups and to think otherwise will soon be illegal.”

[fish5133]

Lawful Killing: Is when a lawful order to kill a specific person irrespective of guilt suffers multiple c*** ups, negligence,mistakes,false information given to press, attempted police cover ups and results in the death of a totally different innocent person.

Lawful killing= 7 bullets in the head of an innocent man

[simplesimon]

Majority option for Menezes jury

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7773815.stm

If only they say "Pre-meditated murder by the state" as Tariq Ali nearly said on Any Questions.

Anyway. It's taking an encouragingly long time.