22Jul05 Jean Charles De Menezes Stockwell tube train murder

[Wokeman]

No, I have it on good authority that J-C de Menezes was shot at very close range 11 (eleven) times while being held down. It was not a casual removal of a dangerous gunman, it was what is called a 'hit' against someone who had to be removed (for reasons I do not know).

[karlos]

this whole thing is so sad, so shocking and yet in a sick way so amusing.
A guy gets shot at least 7 times in the head at point blank range.
You could not imagine the horror and inhumanity of the event.
Yet instead of the murderers being arrested, held and charged and going to jail for life. which is what should happen. And Ian Blair should be done for conspiracy to commit murder and immediately resign.
But instead of this what happens is everyone goes back to work and nobody gets done. And as some kind of sick joke they prosecute the met under health and safety rules.
Ofcourse it is fukking against the health and safety. You shot an innocent man seven times in the head at close range.
They should be done for murder, racially aggravated murder
Racially because they thought he looked like a muslim.
I have no doubt if he had been a muslim he would have been blamed regardless.

[blackcat]

No, I have it on good authority that J-C de Menezes was shot at very close range 11 (eleven) times while being held down. It was not a casual removal of a dangerous gunman, it was what is called a 'hit' against someone who had to be removed (for reasons I do not know).

Didn't he work as an electrician on the 'bus that was blown up on 7/7?

[karlos]

Didn't he work as an electrician on the 'bus that was blown up on 7/7?

There have been rumours, but unless we get to interview his family/friends look at his bank account or other records nobody would ever know if they are true.

I personally doubt very much that he was involved in 7/7.
Why would they use a Brazilian? Mossad would always use one of their own staff who would dissappear and would never talk.
There is absolutely no reason to use an outsider.
And unfortunately a rumour like this spreading is disinformation and giving the impression that he deserved what he got.
That is why i think it is a false rumour and we should quosh it.

[mark_e]

Saw this on the bbc website yesterday and was surprised no one had posted it up. has a bit of a 'no * sherlock' ring about it!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7029990.stm


Met sought suicide bomber advice
Jean Charles de Menezes
Jean Charles de Menezes: Followed to station
British police worried about suicide bombers were advised by Israeli security forces, a court has heard.

A senior officer told the Metropolitan Police's trial over the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes that the Israelis warned of new terror tactics.

They warned suicide bombers had developed devices that could be more easily concealed about the person.

The Met denies breaking health and safety laws in relation to the Brazilian's death on 22 July 2005.

Two elite firearms officers shot the electrician seven times on a train at Stockwell Underground Station fearing he was one of the men responsible for the previous day's failed suicide bombings.

Bombers: Asif Hanif and Omar Sharif
Asif Hanif and Omar Sharif attacked an Israeli bar in 2003

The prosecution allege the Metropolitan Police put the public at risk by allowing their suspect to travel from his home to the station before they intervened.

The Metropolitan Police say that officers did their best in extraordinary circumstances - and that while the shooting was a mistake, it was not a crime.

Giving evidence to the Old Bailey trial, Detective Inspector Andrew Whiddett of the force's Special Branch said the Metropolitan Police had taken steps to prepare for a suicide bomber attack.

Det Insp Whiddett was the Operations Room officer with responsibility for surveillance teams who first identified Mr Menezes. He was seen leaving a block of flats linked to one of the failed bombers.

Those steps included consulting Israeli security forces which had the most experience of dealing with such attacks, he told the court.

The Israelis had met with Met police officers in the months leading up to the July 2005 suicide bombings on London.

In the briefings, said Det Insp Whiddett, Israeli security chiefs had demonstrated how suicide bombers had developed new ways of carrying a bomb that "may not be apparent".

Both the 7 and 21 July attackers used bulky bombs in rucksacks, but Mr de Menezes was not carrying anything on the morning of his death.

Det Insp Whiddett told the jury that Israeli officers had briefed the Met on one attack carried out by two British men.

Asif Hanif and Omar Sharif attacked a Tel Aviv bar in 2003. The bombs used in that attack included "sheet explosives of a military kind concealed about the body more effectively than the traditional home-made suicide belts and vests," said the police officer.

The case continues.

[TonyGosling]

Click on 'Watch the report'

see Met chief urges longer detention limit

Those in charge, particularly Ian Blair and Cressida Dick, must pay for this and jail doors slam behind them. But it's up to all of us.........

Menezes last moments shown on CCTV
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/s ... ctv/894752
Last Modified: 08 Oct 2007
By: Simon Israel (mmmmm... him again - ed.)

Video footage has been released showing the last moments of the Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes - before he was shot dead by police in Stockwell tube station.

The last minutes in the life of Jean Charles de Menezes were released today, labelled "JC" in CCTV footage at the entrance to Stockwell tube station, as he picked up a newspaper and went through the ticket barriers.

A surveillance officer, codenamed Ivor, took an Old Bailey jury through the Brazilian's final journey up to the very point he witnesses the electrician's violent death.

He described how followed the 27-year-old through the ticket hall and down the escalator . Halfway down Mr de Menezes started to run and got on the waiting train. Ivor sat down, two to three seats away.

'After a few moment I felt his head turn towards me. I was aware of C019 officer kneeling on the seat to my left. I heard a gunshot. I was hit by the shock wave of a firearm discharging'
- Surveillance officer, 'Ivor'

He then described how he saw four armed officers CO19 on the platform, put his foot in the door to prevent the doors closing and shouted he's here pointing at the Brazilian who stood up.

"For the safety of the public I grabbed Mr de Menezes by wrapping my arms around his torso, pinning his arms against his side and with by head on the right of his torso drove him back into his seat.

"After a few moment I felt his head turn towards me. I was aware of C019 officer kneeling on the seat to my left. I heard a gunshot. I was hit by the shock wave of a firearm discharging."

The initial surveillance from a van outside the block of flat in Scotia Road missed Mr de Menezes leaving. The officer who was filming departures told the court how he was relieving himself at the moment the Brazilian left and walked past.

From that point on no one in the surveillance team could expressed certainty as to whether he was or wasn't the would be suicide bomber on the gym card photo Hussein Osman.

As Mr de Menezes arrived at Stockwell the surveillance team leader James told how he became frustrated with those in the operational control room at New Scotland Yard who first asked for a percentage figure on likeness to the suspect and later met his repeated requests to detain with the instruction to wait.

[paul wright]

They're the SRR now, aren't they? The same outfit who were caught trying to stage the 2005 Basra 'suicide' bombing. They are known to wear baseball caps that say POLICE on the front, when the situation fits, or any other manner of fancy dress

[uselesseater]

The BBC desperately trying to hold the obsurd myth that the police thought he was a suicide bomber.

Even though there was nothing to suggest that JC was a criminal, much less a suicide bomber, this myth is repeated in every news article.

[conspiracy analyst]

The new line is that he was followed from his house by 'normal' police and then the shooters arrived and bumped him off.

When was this new variation of the multiple changing story created?

At this 'trial'?

If someone did a timeline of dates and times when stories were circulated and changed then this one will probably be bigger than a Harry Potter novel.

CCTV magically surfaced of a man going down a lift 2 years after the event.

We still haven't seen any CCTV for the alleged suicide bombers of 7/7.

Will they appear 7 years from now?

[Ravenmoon]

The Metropolitan Police commander who ordered the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes knew the Brazilian was not one of the wanted July 21 bombers some time before he was killed, the Old Bailey heard yesterday.

Surveillance officers following the 27-year-old formally identified him as not being Hussain Osman, who they were hunting over the failed suicide attempts on London's transport network the day before.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... zes113.xml

[karlos]

De Menezes officer knew he wasn't bomber
By Caroline Gammell
Last Updated: 1:30am BST 13/10/2007

The Metropolitan Police commander who ordered the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes knew the Brazilian was not one of the wanted July 21 bombers some time before he was killed, the Old Bailey heard yesterday.

Jean Charles de Menezes Surveillance officers following the 27-year-old formally identified him as not being Hussain Osman, who they were hunting over the failed suicide attempts on London's transport network the day before.

Commander Cressida Dick, who oversaw Operation Theseus, ordered the surveillance Grey Team to stop Mr de Menezes and question him about the area in which he lived.

He had been spotted in Scotia Road in Tulse Hill, south London, which was linked to 28-year-old Osman after the terrorist's gym card was found bearing the same address.

But despite being negatively identified "in minutes", Mr de Menezes was followed from his home, onto a bus and into Stockwell Tube station where he was killed on July 22, 2005.

Cdr Dick ordered a "hard stop" to be carried out by firearms officers after anti-terror and surveillance teams failed to stop him, the court heard.

Details of the identification came from a surveillance co-ordinator giving evidence during the health and safety trial against the Metropolitan Police.

The officer, known only as "Owen", told the court: "There was a point when the senior management group knew that it wasn't Nettletip (Osman's codename). I believe that came across on the radio.

"I can't say what the exact words were but there was a discussion about the situation on the bus and they wanted SO13 anti-terror police to stop the subject and establish intelligence about the residents and flats at Scotia Road. Cressida Dick ordered officers to stop Mr de Menezes

"If he lived next to the subject he may have been able to tell us things of relevance. It later emerged that they (surveillance) had continued and Cressida Dick asked why the unidentified individual was still being followed if it was not Nettletip."

Clare Montgomery, QC, prosecuting, asked: "Was he identified as positively not Nettletip?"

Owen replied: "Yes, the direction was for the surveillance teams to stop and for the anti-terror officers to gather the intelligence about the block of flats.

"After three or four minutes Cressida Dick and I were aware that the surveillance team had not pulled back and they were still following the male. Her belief was it definitely wasn't the suspect."

Owen said that at no time during the operation was Mr de Menezes, who came to Britain in 2002, "positively identified" as Osman.

A second surveillance officer, identified as "Pat", told jurors how it had been difficult to communicate over the racket in the control room.

"People were shouting to make themselves heard," he said. "I had difficulty getting people's attention because I couldn't leave my seat."

He said there had been trouble with the radio link to the undercover and firearms teams: "There seemed to be problems with the system, but that is not uncommon."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sund ... -16803852/

can you believe these 'police' slandering a dead guy
disgraceful

[Nick Cooper]

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sund ... -16803852/

can you believe these 'police' slandering a dead guy
disgraceful

It may have suited their purpose to leak the story to the press, but the woman had to make the allegation in the first place. What do you think of her?

[karlos]

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sund ... -16803852/

can you believe these 'police' slandering a dead guy
disgraceful

It may have suited their purpose to leak the story to the press, but the woman had to make the allegation in the first place. What do you think of her?

Firstly, nice to see you posting about a topic other than 7/7.
Well done.

I think the whole rape allegation was a smear campaign against Jean Charles de Menezes.
The fact that nobody believed it meant that it did not achieve its desired aims. I am not sure if there actually was a real 'victim'. Rape victims are anonymous and so whether she existed or was simply a story we will never lknow unless there is a change in the law which allows 'her' or whoever to be prosecuted for slander, defamation of conspiracy to pervert the cause of justice at the very lest wasting police time.
So i doubt if she is real but if she is real i would like to see her prosecuted.

the metropolitan police's spin needs to be controlled as well. They have lied about so many things over the last couple of years and it really is getting to the stage when they are acting like a mafia.

[Nick Cooper]

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sund ... -16803852/

can you believe these 'police' slandering a dead guy
disgraceful

It may have suited their purpose to leak the story to the press, but the woman had to make the allegation in the first place. What do you think of her?

Firstly, nice to see you posting about a topic other than 7/7.

I'm full of surprises. In the context of numerous previous bungled police shooting, that of de Menezes interests me greatly.

I think the whole rape allegation was a smear campaign against Jean Charles de Menezes.
The fact that nobody believed it meant that it did not achieve its desired aims. I am not sure if there actually was a real 'victim'. Rape victims are anonymous and so whether she existed or was simply a story we will never lknow unless there is a change in the law which allows 'her' or whoever to be prosecuted for slander, defamation of conspiracy to pervert the cause of justice at the very lest wasting police time.
So i doubt if she is real but if she is real i would like to see her prosecuted.

There are a lot of things that don't seem quite right about the case. It's said that the woman reported the assault at the time (NYW 2002), samples were taken (and were subsequently used to disprove the allegation), etc., and yet she did not apparently suggest her assailent was Jean Charles until late-Feb 2006, having supposedly not seen a picture of him that made her think that until that time. It would be interesting to know what her original description of her assailent was, or even if an e-fit was produced, but the chances of getting access to that are pretty minimal.

the metropolitan police's spin needs to be controlled as well. They have lied about so many things over the last couple of years and it really is getting to the stage when they are acting like a mafia.

Oh, I think they'd been doing it for a lot longer than that....

[karlos]

'dum dum' bullets to kill de Menezes

The Brazilian man shot dead by police was killed with a type of bullet banned in warfare under international convention,
The firing of hollow point ammunition into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, is believed to be the first use of the bullets by British police.


Hollow-point bullets:
It will re-ignite controversy around the shooting, at Stockwell Underground station, south London, on July 22.

Modern hollow point bullets are descendants of the expanding "dum dum" ammunition created by the British in an arsenal of the same name near Calcutta, in India, at the end of the 19th century and outlawed under the Hague Declaration of 1899.

The bullets, which expand and splinter on impact, were available to officers taking part in Operation Kratos, the national police drive against suspected suicide bombers which has been described as a "shoot to kill" policy.

Their issue was sanctioned after research suggested that they were an effective close-quarters ammunition for use against someone about to trigger a suicide bomb.

It is believed the decision was influenced by the tactics used by air marshals on passenger jets - where such bullets are designed to splinter in the body and not burst the fuselage. They have been assessed as posing less risk to people around the suicide bomber than conventional bullets but the effect on victims is devastating.

Like the overall Kratos policy, the decision to make dum dum-style bullets available was taken in secret. However, it is understood that the Home Office became aware three years ago that police were considering their use.

Negotiations on possible national guidance are understood to have been inconclusive and the choice of ammunition appears to be at the discretion of police chiefs, not the Home Secretary.

There is no legal prohibition on police use of such ammunition. The Home Office confirmed last night that "chief officers may use whatever ammunition they consider appropriate to meet their operational needs".

It is understood from security sources that hollow point bullets are still available as an option to police firearms teams in Kratos-type cases.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating the shooting during which seven bullets were fired into Mr de Menezes's head and one into his shoulder.

A number of officers, including members of the firearms and surveillance teams and the Scotland Yard commander who ran the operation, Cressida Dick, have been issued with notices that they are subject to inquiries by the IPCC.

[Disco_Destroyer]

I doubt I'd stop for plain clothed coppers either, they could be anyone??

Menezes jury sees dramatic pictures


The first dramatic pictures of one of the policemen who shot Jean Charles de Menezes have been released by prosecutors.

They were shown to the jury at the Old Bailey trial in which the Metropolitan Police is accused of endangering Mr Menezes and the public.

Minutes after the man and other armed officers burst into Stockwell Tube station, in south London, the 27-year-old Brazilian electrician died with seven bullets in the head. Officers mistook him for attempted suicide bomber Hussain Osman the day after the July 21 failed bombings of London trains in 2005.

Prosecutor Clare Montgomery QC told the jury that firearms officers arrived after Mr de Menezes entered the station. They caught up with him in an Underground train, where a surveillance policeman codenamed Ivor grabbed him.

Miss Montgomery said: "Two firearms officers, who I will refer to as C2 and C12, leant over Ivor and placed their Glock 9mm pistols against Jean Charles's head and fired. He was shot seven times in the head and died immediately."

The images, taken from CCTV footage, show C2, dressed in an unmarked grey top, pushing past two commuters to try to get through the ticket barrier. He is then seen vaulting over the top to get into the station, down the escalator and to the platform.

Passengers look on in disbelief as other armed officers rush through the barrier and into the station. Members of the public are seen running away after spotting an armed officer on stairs leading to a tunnel to the platform.

As they entered the station, the SO19 officers shouted "armed police". Some had caps on and some carried rifles.

The footage was shown to the jury after a surveillance officer codenamed Graham said he was in the foyer of the station when the armed officers arrived. He said: "I have a recollection of them shouting, vaulting, attempting to vault the barrier."

Asked what his reaction was to seeing the officers, he said: "I was surprised. I was shocked. From the briefing point of view, there had been no information that they would be part of the operation." The trial continues.
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp- ... id=6370361

[Disco_Destroyer]

Links would be handy so here they are:-
http://demenezeswasanillegal.blogspot.c ... mmies.html
http://www.justice4jean.com/material/16_11_05.doc
http://hutnyk.blogspot.com/2006/07/mind-gap.html
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... article.do
http://www.perfect.co.uk/2005/11/police ... de-menezes
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 663225.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 666300.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... enez16.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... zes115.xml

[Nick Cooper]

'dum dum' bullets to kill de Menezes

The Brazilian man shot dead by police was killed with a type of bullet banned in warfare under international convention,
The firing of hollow point ammunition into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, is believed to be the first use of the bullets by British police.

Unsurprisingly, the press is neglecting to mention that the soft-nosed semi-jacketed ammunition police forces normally use is also banned for use in warfare. The practical difference is that hollow-points perform at close range in the same way that soft-noseds do at a longer range

[karlos]

the point is that these bullets are designed to KILL no just to incapacitate
this was an Israeli trained hit squad that murdered de Menezes using Israeli tactics.
No police service uses Dum Dums
please dont tell us you think he deserved it

[Ravenmoon]

Officers mistook him for attempted suicide bomber Hussain Osman the day after the July 21 failed bombings of London trains in 2005.

See above article

[Ravenmoon]

De Menezes police bullets instant killers, officer says

Police marksmen used special bullets designed to instantly kill their target on the day they shot dead Jean Charles de Menezes, the Old Bailey heard today.
Specialist firearms officers were armed with bullets used by US air marshals that "immediately incapacitate" their victims, the court was told.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/story ... 55,00.html

Talk about making sure someone was killed

[Disco_Destroyer]

I did see the article, I am not saying I believe the MSN story just adding it for interest sake. I think the story of Dum Dums is enough to say the official story is at odds? Unless of course its standard for cops to carry them One would have thought 7 bullets were plenty, I'd say one Dum Dum would also do the trick, obviously they didn't want a surviver!!

[Nick Cooper]

the point is that these bullets are designed to KILL no just to incapacitate

All bullets are designed to kill. Hollow points do at close/point blank range what soft-nosed semi-jacketed rounds do from further away, and British police have been using the latter for years.

this was an Israeli trained hit squad that murdered de Menezes using Israeli tactics.

Which curiously operated in a way that is contrary to Israeli practice.

No police service uses Dum Dums

On the contrary, hollow-points are widely used by many police forces, particularly in America.

please dont tell us you think he deserved it

I was criticising suspect police shootings when you were still in short pants, sonny, so you can fúck off if all you're going to come up with is bs like that.

[Freedomsdefender]

I think we have overlooked something and are swallowing the official line,(indulge me for a moment)
Just consider this, what if it wasn't an accident? where had Jean Charles been working? had he been witness to something, at work perhaps? this whole episode stinks, If the official explanation is true then the forces of"law and order" ostensibly there for our protection are at best totally incompetent at worst following an agenda diametrically oposed to the people of this country

[karlos]

I was criticising suspect police shootings when you were still in short pants, sonny, so you can fúck off if all you're going to come up with is bs like that.

While i could easily swear back, i wont, because it is a sign that you have lost the argument.

[karlos]

I think we have overlooked something and are swallowing the official line,(indulge me for a moment)
Just consider this, what if it wasn't an accident? where had Jean Charles been working? had he been witness to something, at work perhaps? this whole episode stinks, If the official explanation is true then the forces of"law and order" ostensibly there for our protection are at best totally incompetent at worst following an agenda diametrically oposed to the people of this country

Look, these conspiracy stories about Jean Charles are complete *. He was a totally innocent man gunned down in cold blood for no reason other that RACIAL PROFILING.

Weve got matey from N11 who thinks that shooting an innocent guy in the head seven times at point blank range using illegal bullets is ok. And now we have another poster saying they the victims work had something to do with it. The met tried their own spin by accusing him of being a rapist.

Where do you think he was working then?

[Nick Cooper]

I was criticising suspect police shootings when you were still in short pants, sonny, so you can fúck off if all you're going to come up with is bs like that.

While i could easily swear back, i wont, because it is a sign that you have lost the argument.

You beat me to it when you came up with that * accusation-loaded question of yours.

[Nick Cooper]

I think we have overlooked something and are swallowing the official line,(indulge me for a moment)
Just consider this, what if it wasn't an accident? where had Jean Charles been working? had he been witness to something, at work perhaps? this whole episode stinks, If the official explanation is true then the forces of"law and order" ostensibly there for our protection are at best totally incompetent at worst following an agenda diametrically oposed to the people of this country

LOL! You think such incompetence is anything new? Try reading up on Harry Stanley, or James Ashley, or Stephen Waldorf, to name but three c***-up police shootings.

[Nick Cooper]

Weve got matey from N11 who thinks that shooting an innocent guy in the head seven times at point blank range using illegal bullets is ok.

Stelios, you really are a piece of work, do you know that? If you could jump as far physically as you jump to the wrong conclusion, you'd be selected for the long jump in the next Olympics. A few facts that maybe - just maybe - will penetrate your blinkered and prejudiced little mind:

1. The bullets used by the British police (and those in many other countries), whether soft-nosed semi-jacket rounds of hollow-points, are only "illegal" when used in warfare. The Geneva Convention does not cover their use in an internal/domestic setting. Such ammunition is only "illegal" in a domestic setting where it is outlawed by local legislation, which it not in the UK, or many other countries. That is a statement of fact, not an endorsement. Please try to understand the difference between the two.

2. I do not and never have considered the shooting of JCdM to be "OK." For you to suggest that I do, I consider to be an disgusting and morally reprehensible insult, and I reserve the right to respond, treating it with the contempt it deserves.

Oh, and I don't live in N11, either. Surprise, surprise....

[Ravenmoon]

De Menezes composite picture 'was manipulated'

A composite picture comparing Jean Charles de Menezes with the attempted July 21 suicide bomber Hussain Osman was dishonestly manipulated, a court was told today.
The image - produced to illustrate how similar the two men were in appearance - was shown to jurors at the Old Bailey by lawyers for the Metropolitan police.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/story ... 70,00.html