Rachel from N.London on Alex Cox's Forum

[ian neal]

I know for certain there ain't a shred of evidence to support her claims Islamofascists blew up the London Underground.

Hi Ally

There is the possibility that the evidence exists, but is not in the public domain. Also it is important to acknowledge that for example the evidence of the 'bomb making factory' or the car found at the station exists. The real question is whether this evidence stands up to scrutiny in a court of law. Is it proof of the 'muslim bombers' guilt or was it planted, etc? Do we trust another dodgy 'dossier' (or narrative as they are calling this one) put together by British intelligence/HMG or do we demand that this evidence is subject to the full scrutiny of a judicial process?

Personally I would qualify this statement, to say that there is little independently verifiable evidence in the public domain..... hence the need for an independent inquiry and for all evidence to be thoroughly scrutinised to test whether it is true or not.

I will leave it to you to respond to Rachel's latest post, if you want to?

Hi Sinclair

Excellent post. I should have qualified my post more carefully. Likewise, it is my belief that (1) many of the terrorism stories in the UK have been shown to be government spun fabrications/exaggerations.

And so (2) the extent to which terror cells exist or do not exist in this country is difficult assess and independently verify but is undoubtedly being 'talked up' by those with a vested interest to do so.

(3) Even if terror cells and groups promoting violence are acknowledged to exist in this country, the long standing relations between 'islamic fundamentalists' and elements of the UK/western friendly intelligence services is sufficient to question their independence.

In essense Sinclair hits the nail on the head when he says "YES, and the UK Secret services have played a part in the facilitating, encouraging, funding, recruiting members (patsies) etc. of such UK fundamentalist groups".

Given these connections, it is essential that any inquiry explores the possibility that British intelligence was involved in the bombings.

Rachel, would you support any inquiry looking at this possibility?

Could you elaborate as to the 40% Meacher is correct about, the 60% he is presumably incorrect about and what is the basis for this opinion?

Do you have any indication when the official narrative will be released?

Thanks

[Rachel]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 91_pf.html


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8770417/sit ... ek/page/2/

I don't think you have done much research. Look at first and second generations of Pakistanis in the UK, look at barelwi islam and the new growth of radical wahhabi islam amongst youthful converts, look at the growth in atrocity videos and the new Bin-laden propoganda 'to fight jihad on behalf of the suffering ummah' - you have a lethal combination of disaffection, anger, little theological understanding, unemployment and machismo. Iraq and Afghanistam are radicalising factors.
To not accept that islamic militancy exists is quite mad. To not accept that some youths in the UK are supportive of it is bonkers.

I call it islamofacism as I have explained before, to distinguish it from Islam the authentic religion. Another way of describing it might be the extreme Islamic Right. I've asked for suggestions as to what you want to refer to it as - as long as it is not called Islam, since it is not truly Islamic, nor is fundementalsist Islam technically correct as a term either, I now think.

7th July was not the only plot, Crevice and 21st July were others and they werea) intercepted b) bombs did not explode. July 21st was a real plot, not copy cat - those bombs were real.

There is certainly evidence that Shan and Tanweer were linked to other groups of islamic militants, and had trained in pakistan together, but we will have to wait for the trial since to make the point could be prejudicial to the men getting a fair trial in either of the 2 trials that are pending. See David Leppard's reports for starters, and various M15 leaks to this effect, FFS, do a bit of research. It's all over the place, from multiple sources.

Or are you suggesting the whole world media and the survivors and the police are all ''in on it''? Yes, you probably are. And only you know 'the truth'? Hmmm?

*Sigh*

I have seen your so called anomalies - so far they seem to hang on the 7.40am train anomaly. I am sure they got an earlier train. Apart from that, I don't think there are any other glaring anomalies that make the whole multi-sourced information that is widely available into a pack of lies. YOUR insistence that is was a black ops - let's have some proof of that please...

I don't really see whay I should have to do all your research for you, it's all there in pretty much every news source int he world, take your pick...

Except I expect you will claim that none of that counts,

in which case, we're going round in circles as you are working form such as base of paranioa that it is pointless talkign to you, and I shall retire.

And to draw analogies with my contributions to debate in the face of extreme provocation and frequent personal insults, with the troll Ally, who has contributed nothing but baseless slurs is a bit much frankly.

[numeral]

1. whether you accept that there is such a thing as Muslim fundamentalism in this UK ( yes/no)

YES, and the UK Secret services have played a part in the facilitating, encouraging, funding, recruiting members (patsies) etc. of such UK fundamentalist groups.

2. and the existence of terror cells in the UK? (yes/no)

NO - from the Channel 4 Dispatches programme - Spinning Terror, broadcast on Monday 20th February, it was evident that stories such as the 'Ricin Plot' & the 'Old Trafford Bomb Scare' are nothing but Government spun fabrications with ulterior objectives of 'talking up' the 'War on Terror'. If you think the answer is YES, Rachel, please provide evidence of your assertion.

3. That there is such a thing as young men inspired to bring atrocity attacks to the UK in revenge for the attacks on the umma in Afghanistan, Chechyna, Iraq etc? (yes/no)

NO - The only attrocity attack on the UK was on July 7th 2005. We are told by the UK Government that the July 05 events in London were NOT connected to the Iraq War, so if YOU believe the UK Government, then your answer is NO. My answer is NO too, because i think that there is NO EVIDENCE to substantiate that the 4 No. Asian men cited were completely & autonomously behind the events of July 7th. If you believe that they acted alone without any assistance, collusion or connivance from others. please provide your explanation for the wealth of anomalies that exist with the Official Story. Also explain why there are about 15 people who were associated with those cited as responsible for the 7/7 & 21/7 'events' still locked up in custody in Belmarsh, who will not be tried until 2007.

4. That there is a theology-lite/action-heavy jihadist philosophy that is entirely different to the more common barelwi Islam in the UK and that some young men are drawn to it, and some go much further into a political jihadi extremist mindset. (yes/no)

YES- See response to Q1

5. Do you accept that groups such as this exist? Yes or no?

YES- See response to Q1

I agree with Sinclair's reply. I would only add that no-one at all is charged in connection with the 7 July events and it does not look like anyone will ever be. Those held in connection with the alleged 21 July "failed" bombers are not charged with assisting them beforehand, only with not reporting their whereabouts afterwards, etc.

The Photoshop Four are innocent.

[Rachel]

Rachel, would you support any inquiry looking at this possibility?

Yes, I would like the role of M15 with ref. to what was known about the bombers before they bombed. However I do not believe that they planted the bombs if that is what you are driving at

Could you elaborate as to the 40% Meacher is correct about, the 60% he is presumably incorrect about and what is the basis for this opinion?

No, I can't, as the matter is sub judice and I will not be drawn into commenting on it on a public message board.

Do you have any indication when the official narrative will be released?

I understand May/June after the London Assembly 7th July Review Committee findings have been released. Survivor and bereaved testimony is 23 and 27 March.

Thanks

[brian]

Rachel chooses to cite that Independent article as evidence when in fact it is little more than unsourced character assassination.

What does Rachel make of reports such as this from the Guardian-



The clearest image of the man behind the 7 July bomb attack on a London bus has been released by police as part of a new appeal for information about his final movements.

--Detectives believe that Hussain had initially planned to board a Northern Line train but was unable to do so because of engineering work at King's Cross. Seemingly unsure of what to do and unfamiliar with the area, he wandered around aimlessly for more than an hour.

He is believed to have left King's Cross and walked towards Euston station, before boarding a bus which became caught up in the heavy traffic that followed the tube blasts. He then got off and boarded the No 30 bus heading south.-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondo ... 85,00.html

What are we being told here? That area of London is blanket covered with CCTV, a man with a large rucksack with the exact times known could be picked out in a few minutes maximum yet here we have still baffled police on OCTOBER 2.

There is far too much does not make sense let alone add up, a public inquiry is a necessity

[Sinclair]

'The group's meeting points included a local Iqra Islamic bookshop...

In response to the above quote, I have copied a segment from this (in my view) excellent post from your fellow truthseeker The Antagonist :

Remember the Hamara Youth Access Project (HYAP), set-up with around a million pounds of government money and from which the mosque opposite warned Muslims to stay away?

Remember the Iqra bookshop set-up with monies from the HYAP and run by Mohammad Tafazal, along with ex-special forces, ex-anti-terrorist operative and white, British Islam-convert Martin 'Abdullah' McDaid?

Remember the Fiaz brothers, especially Naveed, the fellow HYAP pioneer who was originally suspected to be one of the suicide bombers on July 7th?

Remember the man labelled the 'Tartan Taliban', one James McClintock, a Scot and white, British Islam-convert widely known to have fought with the Mujahedeen, also known by his Islamic handle, Mohammed Yacoub?

Remember Samantha Lewthwaite, the white, British convert to Islam, who met Germaine Lindsay (himself a convert to Islam) on the Internet, married him just minutes after meeting him in October 2002, and whose father is an ex-military man who served in Northern Ireland?

Remember the MI6 plan to win over the hearts and minds of muslims by infiltrating their communities?

No, of course you don't remember any of these things, because all of these things have been confined to the same July 7th memory hole as the driver of a second affected Piccadilly line train.

Rachel,
perhaps you should explore further the connections between UK Security Services & Muslim (what I believe are) patsies. As Ian Neal states, a full independent investigation would need to explore these apparent stratagems. But, we are not going to have an Independent Enquiry, are we?

So I would propose that it is your duty to undertake such research in the spirit of your calling for an Independent Enquiry.

Let me know how you get on.

With Best Wishes,

~Sinclair~

[Rachel]

My duty?

I have done enough. And I certainly do not need to be told what my duty is by a bunch of armchair conspiracists.

So extremists took over the local youth club & bookshop, set up with public money.

So ex soldiers convert to islam. So extremist jihadi-soldier philospohy is picjked up by an ex soldier: not a surprsie - this philosophy is actively targeted at disaffected angry men. So some islamic extremists are white - hello, look at the convert in the newsnight clip I already posted. And are you suggesting Sam Lewthwaite went so far as to marry and have children with a man as part of an M15 sting??

So M15 want to take extremism on by hearts and minds stuff - they always do that, what are you expecting them to do?

They are not patsies, I suggest you go and talk to anyone from the saved sect, check their website, go do some research into disaffected islamic youths are saying. Don't patronise them by assuming they are dupes: this is real, real enough to die for in some cases.

[Sinclair]

Rachel wrote:

Or are you suggesting the whole world media...are all ''in on it''? Yes, you probably are. And only you know 'the truth'? Hmmm?

This suggestion is not so far fetched, Rachel. I urge you to read the very interesting article by Richard Keeble, Professor of Journalism at the University of Lincoln, originally at MediaLens:

Excerpts:

I focus in my talk on the links between journalists and the intelligence services

As Roy Greenslade, media specialist at the Telegraph (formerly the Guardian), commented: “Most tabloid newspapers – or even newspapers in general – are playthings of MI5.”

Bloch and Fitzgerald, in their examination of covert UK warfare, report the editor of “one of Britain’s most distinguished journals” as believing that more than half its foreign correspondents were on the MI6 payroll.

For instance, according to The Times editorial of 16 December 1994: “Many British journalists benefited from CIA or MI6 largesse during the Cold War.”

etc. etc. etc. Read the full article, it is an eyeopener!

[Prole]

I must say that I get very fed up with the arrogance of the white middle-class voices that purport to understand what drives young British-born Muslim men into becoming alleged suicide bombers.

I prefer to hear THEIR voices:

From The mystery of 'Sid'
By Nasreen Suleaman
BBC News

Why did he do it? Months of investigations have uncovered an apparently integrated, happy, western-thinking man behind the face of one of Britain's first suicide bombers. But many questions remain unanswered.

Like millions of others, Ian Barrett watched the news just a week after the 7 July bombings to discover that three of the men responsible were from the Beeston district of Leeds.

But it was only later that evening, when old school friend Rob Cardiss called Ian on his mobile, that he realised he knew one of the bombers.

"Do you realise who Mohammed Sidique Khan is?" asked Rob.

Ian didn't recognise the name. Rob told him: "It's Sid - from school!"

Mohammed Sidique Khan was someone Ian had lost touch with, but at school they had been close friends. Khan's story is not one of cultural isolation, racial segregation or adolescent religious indoctrination.

The Beeston of Khan's youth was a largely white neighbourhood - and indeed he seems to have spent most of his time in the company of white English lads. Over the past few months I have spoken to many of those white childhood friends, friends who knew Khan as Sid, and they all tell a similar story.

Their accounts of Khan's upbringing and character show a man who spent most of his formative years not really mixing with other local Muslims.

And, says Ian Barrett, unlike the other children of Pakistani parents, he was not under any family pressure to take an interest in Islam.

"The other Pakistani lads would have to go mosque because their families would say 'You're going to mosque.' But Sid didn't go," says Ian. "He didn't seem interested in Islam and I don't ever remember him mentioning religion."

Khan was, by all accounts, an exceptionally well integrated person. His anglicised name "Sid" was just one symbol of his willingness to take on a British identity.

"If it wasn't for the colour of his skin, he would have been [seen as exclusively] English," says Ian. "I just thought of him as a Beeston lad - and that's what he was - a Beeston lad, born and bred."

Socially skilled

During the 1970s and 80s, the Muslim population of Beeston swelled. But while the community grew in number and confidence, Khan appears to have negotiated the potential for divided loyalties in a multicultural society with remarkable social skill.

Ian Barrett and Rob Cardiss recall how fights would regularly break out between English and Asian lads at their secondary school.

Khan never took part - and somehow also managed to avoid being reprimanded, by either side, for remaining neutral. In fact, the only criticism he appears ever to have attracted was some mild adolescent teasing from the other Asian lads about his friendship with an English female classmate.

So how did he become one of Britain's first suicide bombers?

With a decade of experience in journalism, fluent Urdu and a Yorkshire upbringing, I assumed I was well placed to discover what led to Khan's remarkable transformation.

But no one could have prepared me for the febrile atmosphere and wall of silence that has been built up by the Beeston Muslim community that knew him. What is clear is that many people are either too scared to talk - or scared that if they do, that what they say will be distorted by the media.
When the world's press first arrived - and I mean scores of journalists - we were treated with courtesy and respect by Beeston's Muslim community.

We immediately descended on Cross Flatts Park, close to the streets where Khan grew up and where he and the other bombers had played sport.

The local Pakistani lads were heartbroken to learn that Khan could have been responsible for killing people. They were willing to reminisce for the cameras about how Sid was a decent and popular guy.

However as the press began to report stories about radicalisation taking place in local gyms, youth centres and Islamic bookshops, the Muslim residents of Beeston became angry and then wary.

First-hand stories

We have heard the second-hand stories, the rumours and the speculation. But we have yet to hear the first-hand testimony of those who attended these places to really know if any kind of radical Islamist ideology was being spread by Khan or others.

When I returned to Beeston several weeks after the attacks, the silence had been partially lifted.
But there was another barrier to getting at the truth: the willingness of many people to prefer conspiracy theories to some honest reflection about how three young men in their midst could have carried out these terrible attacks.

I was told frequently that the 7 July bombers were either duped into it or were innocent victims of somebody else's bombing campaign.

One Muslim young professional spoke for many when he told me that if the Metropolitan Police could have shot Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent young Brazilian mistaken for a potential suicide bomber, then they could also be wrong about Khan.

I told him that if he had any evidence that undermined Khan's guilt then that would be a sensational story indeed.
The release of Khan's suicide video has diminished some of the doubts about his role in the attacks. But to some extent those doubts still persist in Muslim areas - not only in Beeston but among many other British Muslims I have spoken to.

That's not to say that since July 7 Muslims haven't been asking some important questions. The Muslims I speak to want to know how Khan, a British Muslim like them, did what he did.

We have discovered that not only, as we suspected, there is "an enemy within" - but that its nature is highly complex. Mohammed Sidique Khan exemplifies that complexity.

Here was a Muslim who was publicly respected and admired. He was neither socially isolated nor economically disadvantaged.

If he, with all his trappings of Western culture, is capable of this, how can we prevent it happening again?

And, most uncomfortably for those of Muslim origin like myself, does it encourage our non-Muslim neighbours to look on us all with suspicion?

19th october 2005

BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4354858.stm

I wrote to Nasreem Suleaman asking if it would be sensational indeed to know that the train we are told they took that morning was cancelled and did this fact not undermine Khan's so-called guilt? I didn't receive a reply.

Until I see proof that these 4 young men boarded trains and a bus, I am with the people of Beeston (the people whose voices and views are never heard in our predominantly white middle-class media).

As for the Medialens article, well done Sinclair, you beat me to it. I was about to post this from the same article:

Growing power of secret state

Thus from this evidence alone it is clear there has been a long history of links between hacks and spooks in both the UK and US. But as the secret state grows in power, through massive resourcing, through a whole raft of legislation - such as the Official Secrets Act, the anti-terrorism legislation, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and so on - and as intelligence moves into the heart of Blair's ruling clique so these links are even more significant.

Since September 11 all of Fleet Street has been awash in warnings by anonymous intelligence sources of terrorist threats. According to former Labour minister Michael Meacher, much of this disinformation was spread via sympathetic journalists by the Rockingham cell within the MoD. A parallel exercise, through the office of Special Plans, was set up by Donald Rumsfeld in the US. Thus there have been constant attempts to scare people - and justify still greater powers for the national security apparatus.

[numeral]

look at the growth in atrocity videos

Look at the growth of atrocities. Why don't you do some research?

[insidejob]

It has been said that the Peter Power terror drill that mirrored the 7/7 attack was a 'paper exercise'. Firstly, what does this mean? Secondly, how was it that the drill was able to shift to 'real time', as Power stated, if it was a paper exercise. And, thirdly, who were the two people in gas masks at the Paddington scene reported by the Evening Standard (see quote inbold near end of article)? Were they ordinary passengers who happened to have gas masks on them? Or was the witness seeing things?


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _n14719918
IN THE MIDST OF DESTRUCTION, DRIVER WHO CALMLY LED 1,000 TO SAFETY
Evening Standard (London), Jul 11, 2005 by DICK MURRAY
A TUBE driver who helped lead 1,000 commuters to safety after one of the blasts has spoken of how he saw a "bright yellow glow" as the bomb went off in front of him.

Jeff Porter, 46, was driving a Circle line service at Edgware Road running alongside the train carrying the bomb which killed seven passengers.

Mr Porter - who safely got all the passengers off his train - said that had his train been a second or two earlier, it would have caught the full force of the blast "and twice as many people would have been killed".

Mr Porter, a driver with London Underground for 18 years, was approaching Edgware Road station from Paddington where - because of breakdowns on other parts of the network - he had picked up even more commuters than usual.

As he neared the station, the train carrying the bomb left the station heading in the opposite direction and approached Mr Porter's train in the double-width tunnel. The cab and the first carriage had passed by when the device, thought to contain about 10lbs of explosive, detonated halfway along the second carriage.

"I was just thinking which sandwich to buy in Marks Spencer and was slowing down for a signal, then I saw a bright yellow glow," said Mr Porter.


"I am the luckiest man alive."

As the blast tore along the tunnel and engulfed his cab, the toughened glass windscreen shattered when it was hit by a large piece of debris. He jammed on the emergency brake. "My first thought was that the other train had derailed and hit me," he said.

"After my windscreen shattered it was very quiet for a second.

Then I heard someone shout, 'Help me, help me'.

"I tried the radio, but there was no response. My passengers started banging on the door behind me. I opened it ... the carriage was full of smoke and dust.

"I told everyone to stay where they were. Nobody moved. They were remarkably calm. I went back in my cab and jumped down on to the track.

"I ran up the tunnel towards the station and shouted to uniformed staff, 'Quick, we need help.

Something bad has happened'.

"The track in front of my train was covered with all sorts of wreckage but there was a clear area on the far side of the tunnel.

"The staff were brilliant. They all came down to help without a second thought. Two other drivers ran back with me to my train.

"I went through the train telling everyone to keep calm, we would get everyone off as soon as possible but that there was an emergency situation."

Mr Porter said another of his colleagues had climbed aboard the bombed train and banged on Mr Porter's train window to attract attention. "He was saying, 'Jeff, this is really bad and we need big help'. He was saying there were people dead and dying. He was really distraught."

Mr Porter said he tried another telephone on his train, but still could not get through. "So I said to the guys, 'Go back and get help. It's bad. There are people dead'. When I looked at the bombed carriage there was nothing above the seats. I saw this big hole. That's when I knew it was an explosion.

"There were people screaming and crying. But my responsibility was to the passengers in my train. I am not a paramedic."

Mr Porter went back through his carriage to see if everyone was all right.

"The passengers were as good as gold, though their faces were black with the smoke. TWO GUYS HAD GAS MASKS ON, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY GOT THEM FROM.

"I kept using the public address system telling passengers that we were evacuating the train but that it was going to be a slow process. I asked them to remain calm and told them that we were not in danger, and that we would get everyone out as quickly as we could.

"I was moving back down the train telling people what was happening because personal presence is better than just a PA system. I was telling people to just sit down and read the newspaper" Mr Porter said he was helped by another man - possibly a passenger - and an unknown woman employee from South West Trains who was wearing a high-visibility jacket. They started to move people in groups towards the front of the train to be led to the station.

Mr Porter said he spotted a tramp who is well-known to staff because he often travels on the Circle line all day to keep warm.

"He was really good," said Mr Porter. "He was calming people.

There were a couple who were less mobile and he was helping them."

Mr Porter stayed on the train until everyone was off and then reported the all-clear to other rescue personnel. The whole episode took over an hour.

As he finally emerged at Edgware Road his mobile rang; it was his brother, Alan. Assuring him that he was safe, Mr Porter then called his wife Christine and their daughter Natasha, who is a District line driver and had been following the drama from Barking station.

Mr Porter, now on sick leave, does not know whether he will be able to face driving a train again.

"I don't know, I love driving but I will have to wait and see," he said.

He was prescribed tranquillisers by his doctor, but the prescription remains unused.

EDGWARE RD

1. At 8:50am bomb explodes on westbound Circle line train to Paddington 2.

Impact of explosion hits oncoming train, damaging first carriage 3. Driver Jeff Porter calls for calm and oversees evacuation of 1,000 passengers 150 yards to Edgware Station TOWARDS PADDINGTON

(c)2005. Associated Newspapers Ltd.. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

insidejob

[numeral]

Mr Porter - who safely got all the passengers off his train - said that had his train been a second or two earlier, it would have caught the full force of the blast "and twice as many people would have been killed".

There was at least one fatal injury:

Jenny {Nicholson] was killed by suicide bomber Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, as she made her way to work at a music publishing company.

Her last known phone call was to her dad Gregg from Paddington station minutes before the bombing.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006100740,00.html

Confirmation:

JENNY Nicholson, an advertising executive working in Tottenham Court Road, was confirmed dead yesterday (Wednesday).
Miss Nicholson, 24, was killed in the Edware Road suicide blast on Thursday.
Her tube carriage was going in the opposite direction to the train in which the bomber was travelling.

http://www.camdennewjournal.co.uk/07140 ... 405_03.htm

This is the first time I have heard of someone on the train from Paddington to Edgware Road dying. The train that exploded was Circle 216 from Edgware Road to Paddington.

[Sinclair]

Rachel,

My duty?

I have done enough. And I certainly do not need to be told what my duty is by a bunch of armchair conspiracists.

So extremists took over the local youth club & bookshop, set up with public money.

So ex soldiers convert to islam. So extremist jihadi-soldier philospohy is picjked up by an ex soldier: not a surprsie - this philosophy is actively targeted at disaffected angry men.

So you believe that you have done enough research?? Your list of 5 No. YES/NO questions belies the depth of the subject of UK infiltartion and use of young Islamic persons in Britain over the past years.

Rachel, do you believe that the Independent Enquiry which you support, should investigate connections between UK Security & Intelligence Services & Muslim extremists?

The white British males referred to in my quoting of the Antagonist's article were not just soldiers, but ex Special Forces soldiers. Many would say that these particular persons never cease being a soldier of the realm.

The research into Intelligence Services & Muslim extremists (which you now would defer to an Independent Enquiry) would uncover such instances of the disaffected angry young Muslim men being recruited by web & newspaper adverts inviting young Muslims to take up 'Ultimate Jihad Challenge', run by such ex Special Forces servicemen (again) such as Mark Yates, in the UK (see Hansard for questions asked & woolily answered in Parliament) & in the USA.

Angry young men (in any culture) have 'wannabe' elements within & can be recruited and directed as their controllers see fit. I believe the July '05 young Men were patsies.

So M15 want to take extremism on by hearts and minds stuff - they always do that, what are you expecting them to do?

They are not patsies, I suggest you go and talk to anyone from the saved sect, check their website, go do some research into disaffected islamic youths are saying. Don't patronise them by assuming they are dupes: this is real, real enough to die for in some cases.

A tradional Modus Operandi of intelligence services has been infiltration. I would suggest to you that the UK Intelligence Services 'Hearts & Minds' policy is a bit more advanced than placing adverts for Asian recruits in the Sunday Times supplement. For instance, it is known that the activities of recently arrested cleric Abu Hamza & MI5 were related. John Loftus, the US commentator also states that MI5 worked with Haroon Rashid Aswat.

Rachel, What gives you the insight to say that they wer not patsies? Surely you being 7 feet/yards/metres/carriages from the 'explosion' gives you no more insight than someone who wholly reserches the subject, like the journalists who interviewed old friends of 'Sid' Khan and who were told it's not him.

Other reseacrh would reveal to you that the British were behind the establishment of Wahhabi'ism as part of a plan to destroy and annihilate Islam within the two great Islamic Empires, Indian and Ottoman.

Did you read the article by Richard Keeble, Hacks And Spooks - Close Encounters Of A Strange Kind? Or did you know the subject matter already???

With Best Wishes,

~Sinclair~

[Rachel]

You assume that my sole expertise lies in my proximity to the bombn and my contact with bereaved and survivors.

You assume wrong.

I have done a great deal of research since July 7th; the difference is, I do not start researching from the basis that everything is connected and everything is a conspiracy.

The 5 yes/no questions were not intended to be exhaustive, but to guage whether th epeople I was conversing with - the people who repeatedly call me a liar, a racist, a propogandist, a shill, an M15 double agent, COINTELPRO etc etc for pages and pages of a public bulletin board - are so bonkers that they do not accept that extreme right wing 'islamic' terror groups and cells and indeed, philosphies, exist.

Because if people cannot accept the existence of such groups and such a thing as right wang islamic jihadi groups, there is precious little point attempting to engage at all, other than to rebut libellous postings made on a public board about who I am, what i do, and what I believe.

[Sinclair]

You assume that my sole expertise lies in my proximity to the bombn and my contact with bereaved and survivors.

You assume wrong.

I have done a great deal of research since July 7th; the difference is, I do not start researching from the basis that everything is connected and everything is a conspiracy.

I do not assume that at all. It is you Rachel, that serves the statement up. I am glad that you have undertaken further research. I do not start researching from a conspiracy starting point. It is the research that throws up the anomalies & inconsistencies which leads me to question the Official version of events.

Perhaps, then, you would answer my previous questions?

The 5 yes/no questions were not intended to be exhaustive, but to guage whether th epeople I was conversing with - the people who repeatedly call me a liar, a racist, a propogandist, a shill, an M15 double agent, COINTELPRO etc etc for pages and pages of a public bulletin board - are so bonkers that they do not accept that extreme right wing 'islamic' terror groups and cells and indeed, philosphies, exist.

Rachel, I answered your questions. I have NOT called you a "liar, a racist, a propogandist, a shill, an M15 double agent"

I'd be pleased to have your comments on my statements of UK Security Service infiltration/recruitment within Muslim communities.

Because if people cannot accept the existence of such groups and such a thing as right wang islamic jihadi groups, there is precious little point attempting to engage at all, other than to rebut libellous postings made on a public board about who I am, what i do, and what I believe.

I have accepted the existence of such groups in the answer to your questions. Now I am asking you to explain the extent of your research into UK SIS infiltration into Muslim communities.

Did you watch the Dispatches programme on February 20th?? Do you agree that the UK Government allowed the spinning of the false narrative concerning two incidents -
The Ricin Plot &
Fake Al-Ciada Attack at Old trafford

The 2nd link is a PDF file The Use and Abuse of Terror, The construction of a false narrative on the domestic terror threat by PETER OBORNE, which discusses BOTH incidents.

I look forward to your comments.

with Best Regards,

~Sinclair~

PS & Did you read the article by Richard Keeble, Hacks And Spooks - Close Encounters Of A Strange Kind?

[Rachel]

@Sinclair
I did not see the Oborne Dispatches, and I have yet to see the tape a friend did of it. I saw the following one about civil liberties which I was in braod agreement with. I am at work right now and printed out have read the intro to the Oborne CPS piece, which I broadly agree with and the first 5 pages of Oborne. I did read his shorter articles in the paper to publicise the programme so I have some familarity with what he says in the CPS document.

I agree, and have said for months (if not years) that the Prime Minister has spun terror, that his ill- thought through and hasty sabotaging of the debate 10 point terror plan before going on holiday and when Clarke was on holiday was disgraceful and that he is abusing the terror threat for political gain by feeding a tabloid agenda, which the papers lap up as it sells papers. I agree that the non existent Ricin and Old Trafford threats were mendaciously hyped and sold newspapers but were not based on fact.This does not however mean that ALL terrorist plots are lies. The tabloids hype things: we 'get' that.The Freddie Starr ate my hamster story was *, as was the Beckham kidnap plot, but we all know that and nobody has leapt from that to ''everything is a lie! I am like Neo in the Matrix!'' except conspiracy theorists

I have not had time to read the rest of the document in full and will do so later tonight; however, I will point out at this stage that whilst the Blair administration have attempted to make political capital out of terror, and that they have, by means of the illegal invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Afghanistan, the support of the Bush administration and its disastrous foreign policy agenda contributed to the sense of grievances felt by many Muslims I do not accept that they went a stage further and actively bombed the trains and the bus on July 7th.

I believe that the sense of grievance felt by many Muslims is real and that this grievance can, and does, in some cases, boil over into calls for an armed jihad struggle with young men going to fight abroad, or to bring the ''war'' onto the streets and subways of the UK. I believe that there is a fantaical agenda and an extreme political jihadi philosophy that exploits the rage felt by young men and in some cases incites them to terror. Not all, not many, but some. To distinguish this philosophy from Islam, I have used the term islamofacism or Extreme Right Wing Political islamism. If you other suggestions for a term please suggest them

I believe a different foreign policy would have avoided this current situation and terror threat, and that the threat now faced is partly of Bush and Blair's own making; moreover I believe that the draconian anti-civil liberties and surveillance laws that they hope to pass are not only unneccessary, but play into the agenda of the extremists. A different approach is needed.

I have blogged about all this for months so these views should not be a surprise to anyone. It is of course for , generally perfectly possible for me, many Muslims, and for many people generally to be against the Iraq war, against the trashing of civil liberties and to be extremely angry with the current Bush and Blair administration without condoning terror in any way. This should be utterly obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence. It should also be obvious to assess that there is a real anger, and that some act upon this anger, and use it to justify a poisonous and bigoted political extremist set of beliefs that logically culminate in mass murder.

M15 and M16 are struggling to contend with the new threat, which is that they are not up against the type of terrorists they were up against before, but disaffected self-started cells of ordinary young men who have been radicalised largely by our foreign policies as well as other factors which I will not go into here ans there isn't time ( maybe later) and who consider it their duty to fight in a jihad to protect and ''avenge'' the sufferring of their Muslim brothers and sisters ( Ummah) . It is a nigh-impossible task to track radical young men and to ascertain which ones are full of hot air and which are serious, and raises troubling questions about surveillance of everyone with a grievance against the government. Perhaps one day they will come and get me, I criticise them enough! I wish the Governemtn would pull back from this path and behave more like the Govvernment I voted for, the Labour party I supported for 14 years.

M15/6 have in fact been thwarted by the fact that the Government have an agenda to hype terror and the Bush administration even more so. I do not believe that they are agent provocateurs and actively encourage terror, if that is what you are implying? They are struggling enough as it is without making or radicalising more people!

M15 and M16 do leak to the media, I believe to spread blame if they are seen to have cocked up ( like when they let 2 of the July 7th bombers go and ceased surveillance of them) or to lobby for more funding. They do not I believe generally act as a PR or spin service for the PM or the Home Office. Scarlett is indeed close to Blair and helped out under pressure with the ''dodgy dossier'' but it is a huge leap to go from that to inferring that M16 and M15 publish fictional accounts of non existent terrorist threats and indeed stage manage mass murder of people for some sinister agenda. Just because there have been a few false flag operations does nto mean everything is a false flag. Just because one Alsatian bit you does not mean all Alsatians bite. A spot of basic logic and a deep breath might come in helpful if one feels oneself getting into a lather and beleiving that everything is a Bologna or everything is a Ricin media hype.



It should also not be a surprise that many reporters and readers see M15 and M16 as a good source of exciting stories and are a little awstruck by the mysterious ''James Bond world'' of the security services. As can be demonstrated by David Shayler now making a career out of going round doing lectures on the subject.

Surveillance of a threat naturally involves informers and infiltration: see the case of Reda Hassaine, an Algerian journalist, was paid £300 a month by MI5 to inform on goings on at the Finsbury park Mosque. M15 tend to have a different policy from what I understand to the US intelligence services; that of monitoring plotters and gathering information, and letting it run, only arresting if it seems necessary because an atrocity is about to happen. Keeping a close watch, building up a bigger picture. This policy (and possibly a lack of funding) , contributed to Khan and Tanweer, who were monitored for 2 months in spring 2004, being let go and deemed not a serious threat - with catastrohic results on July 7th. There is also indications that arrests made by the US for political gain comprom ised an M15 sting operation, meaning that M15 had to spring one trap early and then arrrest 13 people who they later had to release for lack of evidence.With friends like the US administration, who needs enemies?

This does not however in my opinion justify the unbeleivably weakly-justified and so far, evidence-free assertion theory that M15 and M16 or any one other than the named bombers were responsible for the attacks on July 7th. I think this conspiracy theory is a step much too far into fantasy, and it is a shame that people run with it, since it distracts from the real problem which is the spinning of the war of terror for political gain and the refusal to face up to the fact that the foreign policies, especially the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and th esuppirt of the US which in turn supports oppressive policies against the Palestinians.

[Rachel]

look at the growth in atrocity videos

Look at the growth of atrocities. Why don't you do some research?

That doesn't make any sense at all: you are talking to an anti war cammpaigner, . I am anti atrocities, anti war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've done lots of research; I tend to get fairly interested in why people have attempted to murder me.

[Rachel]

I must say that I get very fed up with the arrogance of the white middle-class voices that purport to understand what drives young British-born Muslim men into becoming alleged suicide bombers.

I prefer to hear THEIR voices:

#

Mmmm, if that is a dig at me, Bridget, because you have decided I am white middle class, then you might want to ask yourself if all my sources are also white middle clas sor whether in fact i may have had diverse sources for studying what makes people become suicide bombers?

Not that I see what colour or background someone is has to do with the depth of their research and the quality of their evidence and their arguments. Do you think it does matter Bridget? Should white people not study the psychology of suicide bombing? Should only Black police officers investigate Black criminals, only White police officers investigate White Criminals? Only women journalists report on women? I am inteestsed to know quite where you are going with this, as it seems a) a straw man b) rather odd.

[insidejob]

The media says that the 7/7 bombers went to extremist Islamist Madrassas in Pakistan. What they don’t say is that Madrassas are run by Pakistan intelligence and they were given support by the CIA.

The Independent article suggests that Tanweer met the killer of reporter Daniel Pearl, Saeed Sheikh. Yet, Sheikh works for Pakistan intelligence.

The argument that UK Muslim anger at Western policy in the Middle East led to 7/7 does not add up. One could argue that many are angry but only a few would vent that anger through extremist ideology and murder. But what we’re supposed to believe is that:
- many UK Muslims were angry but were not duped by extremist ideology;
- this anger did not lead to many small acts of violent disorder or criminality;
- it did lead to four people who were trained and duped by extremist ideology and became expert in undercover activities and perfectly executed their first terror operation and killed themselves and others whilst doing so;
- there has been no further criminal terrorism or small acts of violent disorder by these angry Muslims or duped extremists;
- and despite the international scope of the terror threat, there has been no large attacks on any UK facilities abroad (excluding Iraq).

So, there are Muslims inside and outside the UK who are mad enough to kill themselves and British people but they are only mad enough to do it once.


http://www.globalterrorism101.com/South ... eview.html
World Conflict Quarterly

News, Analysis and Articles on Terrorists & Terrorism
Islamist extremism has been used by Pakistan, as an instrument of state policy, since the 1980s, to further the country's foreign policy goals vis-à-vis Afghanistan and India, and its quest for 'strategic depth'. The Pakistani state and the Taliban have been co-sponsors of a terrorist network that essentially relies on madrassas (seminaries) and terrorist training camps located in Pakistan and (previously) in Afghanistan. There are an estimated over one million students studying in more than 10, 000 madrassas (some private estimates place their number between 40,000 and 50,000), with militant Islam as their core syllabus.

There is, at present, little evidence to suggest that Pakistan has abandoned, or even diluted, its strategy of using Islamist extremism as an instrument of state policy. The Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir remains the prime target of this strategy, and of the activities of Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist groups.


Cooperative Research has created a 911 timeline using published, mainly media, sources
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/time ... d_9/11=isi
March 1985: US Escalates War in Afghanistan
Osama bin Laden in 1989.
Tens of thousands more will study in the hundreds of new madrassas funded by the ISI and CIA in Pakistan. Their main logistical base is in the Pakistani city of Peshawar. [The Hindu, 9/27/01; Washington Post, 7/19/92; Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/23/01; Honolulu Star-Bulletin, 9/23/01] In the late 1980s, Pakistani President Benazir Bhutto, feeling the mujahedeen network has grown too strong, tells President MFEMFE H. W. Bush, “You are creating a Frankenstein.” However, the warning goes unheeded. [Newsweek, 9/24/01] By 1993, President Bhutto tells Egyptian President Hasni Mubarak that Peshawar is under de facto control of the mujahedeen, and unsuccessfully asks for military help in reasserting Pakistani control over the city. Thousands of mujahedeen fighters return to their home countries after the war is over and engage in multiple acts of violence. One Western diplomat notes these thousands would never have been trained or united without US help, and says, “The consequences for all of us are astronomical.” [Atlantic Monthly, 5/96]


http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essa ... aeedsheikh
9/11 Paymaster Saeed Sheikh
By Paul Thompson
June 1993-October 1994: Saeed Sheikh, a brilliant British student at the London School of Economics, drops out of school and moves to his homeland of Pakistan to become a terrorist. Two months later, he begins training in Afghanistan at camps run by al-Qaeda and the Pakistani army. By mid-1994, he has become a terrorist instructor. In June 1994, he begins kidnapping Western tourists in India. In October 1994, he is captured after kidnapping three Britons and an American, and is put in a maximum-security prison (see November 1994-December 1999). The ISI pays for a lawyer to defend him. [Los Angeles Times, 2/9/02, Daily Mail, 7/16/02, Vanity Fair, 8/02] His supervisor for his terror work is an ISI officer named Ijaz Shah (see February 5, 2002). [Times of India, 3/12/02, Guardian, 7/16/02] Al-Qaeda and the ISI later rescue him from prison (see December 24-31, 1999) and he becomes a central figure in the financing of the 9/11 plot (see Early August 2001 (D)).

1999 (J): The London Times later claims that British intelligence secretly offers 9/11 paymaster Saeed Sheikh, imprisoned in India (see November 1994-December 1999) for kidnapping Britons and Americans (see June 1993-October 1994), an amnesty and the ability to "live in London a free man" if he will reveal his links to al-Qaeda. He apparently refuses. [Daily Mail, 7/16/02, London Times, 7/16/02] Yet after he is rescued in a hostage swap deal (see December 24-31, 1999), the press reports that he, in fact, is freely able to return to Britain. [Press Trust of India, 1/3/00] He visits his parents there in 2000 and again in early 2001. [Vanity Fair, 8/02, BBC, 7/16/02, Telegraph, 7/16/02] He is not charged with kidnapping until well after 9/11 (see November 2001-February 5, 2002). Those kidnapped by Saeed call the government's decision not to try him a "disgrace" and "scandalous." [Press Trust of India, 1/3/00] The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review later suggests that not only is Saeed closely tied to both the ISI and al-Qaeda, but may also have been working for the CIA: "There are many in Musharraf's government who believe that Saeed Sheikh's power comes not from the ISI, but from his connections with our own CIA. The theory is that ... Saeed Sheikh was bought and paid for." [Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 3/3/02] Did or does Saeed have some kind of deal with British or US intelligence?

Daniel Pearl.
January 6, 2002: The Boston Globe reports that shoe bomber Richard Reid (see December 22, 2001 (B)) may have had ties with an obscure Pakistani group called Al-Fuqra. Reid apparently visited the Lahore, Pakistan home of Ali Gilani, the leader of Al-Fuqra. [Boston Globe, 1/6/02] Reporter Daniel Pearl reads the article, and decides to investigate (see also December 24, 2001-January 23, 2002). [Vanity Fair, 8/02] Pearl believes he is on his way to interview Gilani when he is kidnapped (see January 23, 2002). [Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 3/3/02] A 1995 State Department report said Al-Fuqra's main goal is "purifying Islam through violence." [Vanity Fair, 8/02] Intelligence experts say it is a splinter group of Jaish-e-Mohammad, and has ties to al-Qaeda. [UPI, 1/29/02] Al-Fuqra claims close ties with the Muslims of the Americas, a US tax-exempt group claiming about 3,000 members living in rural compounds in 19 states, the Caribbean and Europe. Members of Al-Fuqra are suspected of at least 13 fire bombings and 17 murders, as well as theft and credit-card fraud. Gilani had links to people involved in the 1993 WTC bombing, and he fled the US after the bombing. Gilani admits he works with the ISI and lives freely in Pakistan. [Boston Globe, 1/6/02, The News, 2/15/02, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 3/3/02, Vanity Fair, 8/02] Saeed Sheikh "has long had close contacts" with the group, and praises Gilani for his "unexplained services to Pakistan and Islam." [The News, 2/18/02, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 3/3/02] There has been surprisingly little media coverage of Al-Fuqra, given their US presence and al-Qaeda connection (see also [Knight Ridder, 12/25/01, New York Times, 1/3/02, New York Post, 2/10/02, Rocky Mountain News, 2/12/02]).

February 5, 2002: Pakistani police, with the help of the FBI, determine Saeed Sheikh is behind the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl (see January 23, 2002), but are unable to find him. They round up about ten of his relatives and threaten to harm them unless he turns himself in. Saeed Sheikh does turn himself in, but to Ijaz Shah, his former ISI boss (see June 1993-October 1994). [Boston Globe, 2/7/02, Vanity Fair, 8/02] The ISI holds Saeed for a week, but fails to tell Pakistani police or anyone else that they have him (see February 12, 2002). This "missing week" is the cause of much speculation. The ISI never tells Pakistani police any details about this week. [Newsweek, 3/11/02] Saeed also later refuses to discuss the week or his connection to the ISI, only saying, "I will not discuss this subject. I do not want my family to be killed." He adds, "I know people in the government and they know me and my work." [Newsweek, 3/13/02, Vanity Fair, 8/02] It is suggested Saeed is held for this week to make sure that Pearl was killed. Saeed later says that during this week he got a coded message from the kidnappers that Pearl had been murdered. Also, the time might have been spent working out a deal with the ISI over what Saeed would tell police and the public. [Newsweek, 3/11/02] Several others with both extensive ISI and al-Qaeda ties wanted for the kidnapping are arrested around this time. [Washington Post, 2/23/02, London Times, 2/25/02] One of these men, Khalid Khawaja, "has never hidden his links with Osama bin Laden. At one time he used to fly Osama's personal plane." [PakNews, 2/11/02]

April 5, 2002: Later in the month the London Times says that the real truth about Saeed won't come out in the trial because, "Sheikh is no ordinary terrorist but a man who has connections that reach high into Pakistan's military and intelligence elite and into the innermost circles of Osama Bin Laden and the al-Qaeda organization." [London Times, 4/21/02]

insidejob

[Annie]

Hi Rachel
It was a pleasure to meet you last night at the London 911 Truth Campaign event.
For obvious reasons, those who realise that the official version of 911 does not stand up to any impartial scrutiny are also curious about the events of 7/7, especially as there is, to date, no official account of what happened that day. All that the British public has to go on is a series of leaks (both official and unofficial) to members of our esteemed national press. That these leaks are contradictory and often made to hacks with a reputation for acting as MI5/6 conduits adds to the public’s appetite for a full enquiry. However, post Hutton and Butler, I’m not sure quite how such a report would be received.
Concerns are justified about the spies’ role in promoting terrorism, lying to government about their mistakes, or turning a blind eye to illegal acts. In only five years working for MI5, David Shayler saw innumerable examples of these activities within the intelligence agencies. Also, evidence has subsequently emerged from MI6 that there was indeed an attempt to assassinate Gaddafi by funding Islamic extremist terrorists in Libya. It has also been established through the Stevens enquiry that the British intelligence officers promoted atrocities in Northern Ireland.
As you say “Just because there have been a few false flag operations does not mean everything is a false flag. Just because one Alsatian bit you does not mean all Alsatians bite.” Yes, to a certain extent. However, if these agencies are never held to account for their actions and continue to get away with illegal acts, there is no incentive for change. MI5 and MI6 are closed, secretive and self-referential organisations. As such, they are self-perpetuating oligarchies and will never reform without outside pressure.
For the record, David Shayler has not “made a career” out of lecturing about MI5. In fact, he’s had damn little career since he turned his back on a lucrative job and blew the whistle on the agencies nine years ago. He attends events like last night gratis because he feels passionately that the truth needs to be told, change can be effected, and we can all sleep more safely in our beds at night.
We are all seekers after the truth. I’m sure that the 911 Truth Campaign would be interested to hear your personal experience and analysis on the events of 7/7, if you would feel able to come to one of our meetings and talk us through it. One thing we don’t want to do is run off down a series of blind alleys!
By the way, what are your views on 911 itself? Have you seen any of the DVDs/ read the books questioning the official version?

Regards

Annie Machon
Secretary
911 Truth Campaign (Britain and Ireland)

[alkmyst]

The only Al Qaeda terror cell to have been caught anywhere in the world .......... were Mossad agents arrested by the Palestinian Authority for attempting to set up phony 'al Qaeda' cells in the Gaza Strip!

Full story at: www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html

Anyone who doubts the extreme philosophy and practices of Mossad (Motto: By Way of Deception Thou Shalt Do War) should read the 1990 bestseller titled: 'By Way of Deception' written by Victor Ostrovsky and Claire Hoy.

Another excellent source is 'Ben-Gurion's Spy' by Shabtai Teveth

Al K Myst

[Prole]

I must say that I get very fed up with the arrogance of the white middle-class voices that purport to understand what drives young British-born Muslim men into becoming alleged suicide bombers.

I prefer to hear THEIR voices:

#

Mmmm, if that is a dig at me, Bridget, because you have decided I am white middle class, then you might want to ask yourself if all my sources are also white middle clas sor whether in fact i may have had diverse sources for studying what makes people become suicide bombers?

Not that I see what colour or background someone is has to do with the depth of their research and the quality of their evidence and their arguments. Do you think it does matter Bridget? Should white people not study the psychology of suicide bombing? Should only Black police officers investigate Black criminals, only White police officers investigate White Criminals? Only women journalists report on women? I am inteestsed to know quite where you are going with this, as it seems a) a straw man b) rather odd.

As I said, the voices of other young Muslim men living in the same area of Beeston, Leeds say

I was told frequently that the 7 July bombers were either duped into it or were innocent victims of somebody else's bombing campaign.

Perhaps we should ignore these voices, again, and only listen to those that are reflected everyday in our mainstream media. After all, whose views are more important?

As for the theory of these 4 young men being suicide-bombers, I say, show us the evidence.

As Naima Bouteldja writes in Who really bombed Paris?

The evidence is that the 1995 Islamist attacks on the French metro were in fact carried out by the Algerian secret service

http://www.rinf.com/news/sep-2005/16.html

In 1991 Algeria's main Islamic party, the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS), won a first-round victory in the country's inaugural multiparty general
elections, which threatened to strip away the power of the generals who had controlled the state from the shadows.

Exploiting Europe's fear of an Islamic government, the Algerian army
intervened to halt the second round of voting, forcing the president to
step down and a temporary commission to rule the country. But the
legitimacy of this new arrangement could only be assured if the Islamic
opposition could be discredited and crushed.

The DRS - the Algerian secret service - systematically infiltrated
insurrectionary Islamist groups such as the GIA and from 1992 onwards
launched its own fake guerrilla groups, including death squads disguised as
Islamists. In 1994, the DRS managed to place Jamel Zitouni, one of the
Islamists it controlled, at the head of the GIA.

"It became impossible to distinguish the genuine Islamists from those
controlled by the regime," says Salima Mellah, of the NGO Algeria Watch.
"Each time the generals came under pressure from the international
community, the terror intensified".

If one only asks, who benefits from 7th July? I would have to answer the states of Israel, the US and UK.

[Sinclair]

7th July was not the only plot, Crevice and 21st July were others and they were a) intercepted b) bombs did not explode. July 21st was a real plot, not copy cat - those bombs were real

Operation Crevice, (so I can gather from very limited info
on the Net) was enacted from a tip-off received in February 2004 from America’s National Security Agency (NSA) in Fort Meade, Maryland.

Apparently the world’s largest electronic eavesdropping centre picked up on an e-mail that was sent from someone in the circle around Abu Musab al-Zarqawi (yep, him again, the one-legged Al-CIAda bogeyman blamed for instrumenting most of the insurgency in Iraq). The email appeared to be instructions for an attack (in the UK) passing between Al-Qaeda commanders in Pakistan and associates in Britain. There was very little coverage of Operation Crevice at the time.

As Operation Crevice progressed (we are told), news came through of the Madrid bombings on March 11, in which 191 people were killed. Shortly afterwards, Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan police commissioner, said a similar attack on this country was inevitable. Police also said that there would be arrests in Britain shortly in connection with the financing of the Madrid attacks. Were there??

From this report in the Scotsman on Fri 15 Jul 2005

Mohammed Sadique Khan, a 30-year-old teaching assistant who died in the Edgware Road blast last Thursday, was yesterday named as one of the targets who escaped an anti-terrorist swoop mounted last March (i.e op. Crevice) in southern England and North America.

Yesterday (14/7/05), the French daily Libération reported that Khan, the oldest of the London bombers, had been one of the targets of last year's operation, but had "escaped".

The paper quoted a senior French police official as saying that Khan had subsequently been on a Scotland Yard "target list" for 15 months, but under the name "Mohammed Kayoun Khan" with a different date of birth.

The report follows statements on Wednesday from Nicholas Sarkozy, the French interior minister, that "a part of the team" behind the London blasts had been the subject of a counter-terrorism operation last spring.

That remark appears to refer to Operation Crevice, a string of raids last 31 March that led to several men being arrested and charged under the Terrorism Act 2000.

British officials yesterday publicly refused to confirm or deny the French report, but privately some admit that there is evidence that Khan had been in contact with one of the men arrested last year.

The circumstances of that contact are uncertain, and all the details surrounding Operation Crevice now are understood to be under review by MI5 and Anti-Terrorism Branch detectives.
...
While there was no way to confirm the Libération report, the paper's police source was clearly very well-informed about the London investigation.

Alone among European media outlets, Libération identified Germaine as the fourth bomber yesterday morning. At that time, most British newspapers and even many police officers believed the fourth bomber to have been another Leeds man of Asian origin.

Germaine's identity was only established yesterday (14/7/05) afternoon after forensic experts matched DNA samples from a house in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, to shreds of tissue retrieved from the Piccadilly Line train that exploded near Russell Square.

What a frickin mishmash of confusion!! So we have a French newspaper revealing that some of the July 7th accused were previously under UK Security Service review. Also, the same French newspaper identifies one of the July 7th accused !

Of course, all these lines of enquiry & establishing a congruent story/explanation were then forestalled further with the events of 21st July (what a debacle/coincidence that ALL 4 'BOMBS' FAIL TO GO OFF), and the following execution of the innocent Brazillian man.

Rachel, I find it hard to believe any official explanation, & I haven't even mentioned the conflicting train times, perfume/military bomb constituents, lack of CCTV images, bus diversions, previous bus maintenance, bus driver swaps, early power surges, training exercises, Guiliani on hand etc. etc. etc.

Those held in connection with the alleged 21 July "failed" bombers are not charged with assisting them beforehand, only with not reporting their whereabouts afterwards, etc

As Prole says, the (is it) 17 people currently being held in Belmarsh are friends/acquaintences of the July 21st crew, who are being tried (sometime) in 2007 for not reporting their (the crew) whereabouts afterwards, etc. Me thinks it is because those held in custody could/would have an explanation that didn't fit in with the (very sketchy) details that are currently in the public domain. But it's all for our safety, we are told. *, we are not that stupid.

[Techybloke666]

Rachel, I find it hard to believe any official explanation, & I haven't even mentioned the conflicting train times, perfume/military bomb constituents, lack of CCTV images, bus diversions, previous bus maintenance, bus driver swaps, early power surges, training exercises, Guiliani on hand etc. etc. etc.

Don't forget Haroons mobile calls to the bombers , demolition vans parked by bus explosion, Guiliani's seminar in leeds. Yellow flashes from bombs that produce no light on explosion, warnings to Isreali diplomats, Mi5 recruiting agents in leeds, Bruce laits testimony of bombs under train , and french explosive expert appraisal of what explosive was used, and assignation of electrical contractor who knew too much and last but not least the arguement at the petrol station over short change !

[numeral]

Yellow flashes from bombs that produce no light on explosion

Watching the de Menenez program on BB1 just now, I saw a demonstration of a very small amount of TATP ignited by a cigarette in an Israeli laboratory. It produced a brief red flash and a soft crump.

But:

TATP is an unusual explosive. ‘We normally think of explosive materials, like fuels, as highly energetic compounds, releasing their energy content in fast, exothermic reactions. So, excessive heat of formation has been considered to be the key property of all explosives,’ said Ehud Keinan, professor of chemistry at Haifa Technion, Israel. He and a team of researchers in Israel and Germany have been investigating the dynamics TATP explosions. ‘Although TATP does burn when it is set alight, releasing large volumes of carbon dioxide and water, it appears that very little heat is created when it explosively decomposes,’ said Keinan.
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ ... 070502.asp

So did we see TATP burning or exploding?

[Prole]

From Rachel's blog today http://rachelnorthlondon.blogspot.com/

Forgiveness
I've just been asked to write a piece for the Sunday Times News Review; following the story this week of Rev. Julie Nicholson who has not left the priesthood but who no longer wishes to work as a vicar in her parish because she feels she cannot forgive her daughter's killer: her daughter was killed on July 7th last year in the Edgware Rd bomb .

From The Guardian March 7th
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondo ... 71,00.html

Vicar who cannot forgive tube bombers quits pulpit

Nicholson, who was 24, was killed by the suicide bomber Mohammed Sidique Khan on the westbound Circle line service she had boarded at Paddington station. She had phoned her boyfriend, James White, minutes earlier.

Perhaps Rachel might explain in her article how it was possible to board a westbound train from Paddington to Edgware Road? The Circle line train that exploded was travelling Westbound between Edgware Road and Paddington.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/u ... are_rd.stm

[Rachel]

Hi Rachel
It was a pleasure to meet you last night at the London 911 Truth Campaign event.
For obvious reasons, those who realise that the official version of 911 does not stand up to any impartial scrutiny are also curious about the events of 7/7, especially as there is, to date, no official account of what happened that day. All that the British public has to go on is a series of leaks (both official and unofficial) to members of our esteemed national press. That these leaks are contradictory and often made to hacks with a reputation for acting as MI5/6 conduits adds to the public’s appetite for a full enquiry. However, post Hutton and Butler, I’m not sure quite how such a report would be received.
Concerns are justified about the spies’ role in promoting terrorism, lying to government about their mistakes, or turning a blind eye to illegal acts. In only five years working for MI5, David Shayler saw innumerable examples of these activities within the intelligence agencies. Also, evidence has subsequently emerged from MI6 that there was indeed an attempt to assassinate Gaddafi by funding Islamic extremist terrorists in Libya. It has also been established through the Stevens enquiry that the British intelligence officers promoted atrocities in Northern Ireland.
As you say “Just because there have been a few false flag operations does not mean everything is a false flag. Just because one Alsatian bit you does not mean all Alsatians bite.” Yes, to a certain extent. However, if these agencies are never held to account for their actions and continue to get away with illegal acts, there is no incentive for change. MI5 and MI6 are closed, secretive and self-referential organisations. As such, they are self-perpetuating oligarchies and will never reform without outside pressure.
For the record, David Shayler has not “made a career” out of lecturing about MI5. In fact, he’s had damn little career since he turned his back on a lucrative job and blew the whistle on the agencies nine years ago. He attends events like last night gratis because he feels passionately that the truth needs to be told, change can be effected, and we can all sleep more safely in our beds at night.
We are all seekers after the truth. I’m sure that the 911 Truth Campaign would be interested to hear your personal experience and analysis on the events of 7/7, if you would feel able to come to one of our meetings and talk us through it. One thing we don’t want to do is run off down a series of blind alleys!
By the way, what are your views on 911 itself? Have you seen any of the DVDs/ read the books questioning the official version?

Regards

Annie Machon
Secretary
911 Truth Campaign (Britain and Ireland)

Dear Annie,

It was nice to meet you the other night.

Rachel

[Pikey]

Well done Annie, IMO you've made a great start to your challenging position of Secretary of the 911 Truth campaign (Britain & Ireland).

I have been following this thread which at times has broken my heart when I have read the personal attacks and insults, they achieve nothing,
which IMO is the outcome the powers that be wish to see in order to maintain the status quo.

Is this the first positive sign of a working together for the common cause Rachel ?...............an independent enquiry into 911 as well as 7/7........an entente cordial?

I do hope so.

Peace & truth

[Pikey]

Hi Rachel,

I would be interested to read what you have to say about the "David Shayler google video" thread on this website forum (i.e the official 911 truth campaign (Britain & Ireland) presentation.

Peace & truth

[Sinclair]

...weakly-justified (and so far,) evidence-free assertion theory that M15 and M16 or any one other than the named bombers were responsible for the attacks on July 7th.

Rachel,

I agree that evidence free assertion should not be used to implicate and condemn any persons or organisations. The discussion here has dealt with some of the anomalies surrounding the July '05 incidents. Postulation is an important means/method of trying to establish the truth - ask any detective!

I agree that I think this conspiracy theory is a step much too far into fantasy, and it is a shame that people run with it, since it distracts from the real problem which is the spinning of the war of terror for political gain and the refusal to face up to the fact that the foreign policies, especially the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and th esuppirt of the US which in turn supports oppressive policies against the Palestinians.

...a step much too far into fantasy it may be, but that does not make it unquestionable.

(T)he real problem (which) is the spinning of the war of terror for (geo)political gain and the the foreign policies, especially the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan...

I whole heartedly agree - I take it you would also include the current brinkmanship being courted by the US against Iran over (what I believe is) the threat to OilDollar hegemony, under the smokescreen of the 'Nuclear' issue.


I am also interested in your views of the 9-11 truth issues. Have you watched the David Shayler/LC2 vid?

Regards,

~Sinclair~


"They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."George Orwell 1984