About this "Critics Corner"

[Jay Ref]

I had never heard the word [Zionazi] previously and would obviously refuse to endorse or condemn it without any experience of the context in which it is used. I would GUESS the word carries the implication that policies of the state of Israel reflect certain actions of the Nazis. That is a statement i believe to be true.

Then you've fallen victim to the PR campaign of Hamas and Hizbullah, too.

Israelis occupy a tiny scrap of desert in a vast Middle East. They have no intention of military expansion, they have no dictatorial heirarchy, they have no policy of genocide. While you may find some of their policies, tactics, and strategies despicable, comparing them to the Nazis is pure hyperbole, an inflammatory comparison meant to demonize Israeli Jews.

It sickens me that you buy into this nonsense.

But Gabe, why shouldn't they buy this nonsense? They've bought all the other nonsense. This is the target audience for Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis, and extremists of all stripes. The truth movement is fast becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of the white supremist movement.

-z

PS: If there are any black or Jewish truthers...they should keep a watchful eye on developments....(has anyone ever seen any black or Jewish truthers?)

[lostpomme]

Maybe i'm missing something here (that's not sarcasm, i would genuinely like to be corrected if i am misunderstood) but i thought Judaism was one of the oldest surviving religions in the world, and Zionism was a political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel. I've known quite a few Jewish people (I was engaged to one) who, while very religious, had nothing but contempt for Zionism.
Coconut's quote above sounds fair, but infact gets a rather childish and inaccurate response. Though i'm open to correction if i dont have my facts straight.

You're quite right to make this distinction, accurately narrowing the term "Zionism" to its limited original definition.

Do you suppose that people who write almost obsessively about Zionists plotting evilly to rule the world, Zionists controlling the media, Zionists doing 9/11, the Zionist banking cartel, Zionists manipulating all manner of world events, that they are talking about a "political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel"??? Get real, mate. They're talking about TEH JOOOS.

Are you saying that when people talk of a Zionist conspiracy they are refering to all jewish people? Because that would make my Jewish friend's argument against Zionism a strange one...

I simply argued that Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing, as confirmed by several Jew's I have discussed the matter with. And secondly that to refer to someone as an anti semite for the critisism of Zionist policy was not only wrong but dangerous.
I can understand how you reach your conclusions when examining it from a specific context, but lets face it the definition of anti semitism changes depending who you ask. The palestinians are semites. So killing pallestinians is anti semetic, hence the validity of the argument that Zionism has policies which echo Nazism.

Too often people see what they want to. Are you sure that all the people you refer to are taking the extreme viewpoint you think? I think Zionist policy is wrong and so do some Jews i know. Are they anti semetic semites then?

[Jay Ref]

Maybe i'm missing something here (that's not sarcasm, i would genuinely like to be corrected if i am misunderstood) but i thought Judaism was one of the oldest surviving religions in the world, and Zionism was a political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel. I've known quite a few Jewish people (I was engaged to one) who, while very religious, had nothing but contempt for Zionism.
Coconut's quote above sounds fair, but infact gets a rather childish and inaccurate response. Though i'm open to correction if i dont have my facts straight.

You're quite right to make this distinction, accurately narrowing the term "Zionism" to its limited original definition.

Do you suppose that people who write almost obsessively about Zionists plotting evilly to rule the world, Zionists controlling the media, Zionists doing 9/11, the Zionist banking cartel, Zionists manipulating all manner of world events, that they are talking about a "political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel"??? Get real, mate. They're talking about TEH JOOOS.

Are you saying that when people talk of a Zionist conspiracy they are refering to all jewish people? Because that would make my Jewish friend's argument against Zionism a strange one...

I don't think that's what he said. I do understand that reading comprehension is not of paramount importance to most CTists but please try and read carefully what he wrote instead of replying to what you think he wrote. If your Jewish friend... (and BTW doesn't every KKK, or Aryan Nations numbskull have a black or Jewish friend? They don't hate Jews just Zionists. They don't hate blacks, just niggers.)...has an argument with Zionism I'm quite sure he doesn't express this argument by speaking of "Teh Zionist Conspiracy" that rules the world thru the media, the banks, and the US Gubmint. Or does he?

If so that's some strange Jewish friend you got there.

I simply argued that Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing, as confirmed by several Jew's I have discussed the matter with. And secondly that to refer to someone as an anti semite for the critisism of Zionist policy was not only wrong but dangerous.
I can understand how you reach your conclusions when examining it from a specific context, but lets face it the definition of anti semitism changes depending who you ask. The palestinians are semites. So killing pallestinians is anti semetic, hence the validity of the argument that Zionism has policies which echo Nazism.

This is a disingenuous argument usually put forth on stormfront.org. Are you one of them? Hey...just asking questions dude. I have no theory.

Too often people see what they want to. Are you sure that all the people you refer to are taking the extreme viewpoint you think? I think Zionist policy is wrong and so do some Jews i know. Are they anti semetic semites then?

No, but then again you are not arguing against Zionist policy. This is a CTard board. So the question to you is do you believe (sans evidence) that the Zionist entity was involved in 9/11? Do you think they own the media? Hollywood? The Federal Reserve?

Only in your answers to these questions can we ferret out your real position. Call me cynical, but I'm willing to place a strong bet that you are one of the people my friend the chipmunk was talking about.

-z

[catfish]

Is Jew a religion or a race? Your thoughts please.

[Jay Ref]

Is Jew a religion or a race? Your thoughts please.

I don't know. I guess an argument could be made for either. I'm not Jewish so I'm no expert on Jewishness. If I had to give a short answer I'd say that a "Jew" is a fellow human being.

But let me ask you something? What does this matter? How does your question relate to the search for trooth?

-z

[chipmunk stew]

Is Jew a religion or a race? Your thoughts please.

Both. But when people opine about the Jews running things, they're generally not bothered by Hava Nagila and menorahs--they're referring to bloodlines and cultural attributes.

[DeFecToR]

The truth movement is fast becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of the white supremist movement.

Brilliant!

PS: If there are any black or Jewish truthers...they should keep a watchful eye on developments....(has anyone ever seen any black or Jewish truthers?)

Holy nonsense!

Every now and then you really do betray your own intelligence Jay Lord.

I've seen black truthers and i myself am from a Jewish family.

Moron.

[catfish]

Is Jew a religion or a race? Your thoughts please.

Both. But when people opine about the Jews running things, they're generally not bothered by Hava Nagila and menorahs--they're referring to bloodlines and cultural attributes.

Okay, so is zionism a religion or a race?

[chipmunk stew]

Are you saying that when people talk of a Zionist conspiracy they are refering to all jewish people? Because that would make my Jewish friend's argument against Zionism a strange one...

NO, not all Jewish people, TEH JOOOS, man, TEH JOOOS!!!
If there was a Zionist conspiracy (according to your appropriately narrow definition) then it was an open conspiracy that's already accomplished its goal--the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel. Beyond that, by your own definition, the term "Zionist" must be a stand-in for something else entirely. Used this way, it's equivalent to TEH JOOOS.

I simply argued that Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing, as confirmed by several Jew's I have discussed the matter with. And secondly that to refer to someone as an anti semite for the critisism of Zionist policy was not only wrong but dangerous.
I can understand how you reach your conclusions when examining it from a specific context, but lets face it the definition of anti semitism changes depending who you ask. The palestinians are semites. So killing pallestinians is anti semetic, hence the validity of the argument that Zionism has policies which echo Nazism.

It's not antisemitic to kill a Jew. It's antisemitic to kill a Jew because he's a Jew. And the Nazis were not merely antisemitic--they were genocidal. Zionism in no way echoes Nazism. You are flat wrong.

Too often people see what they want to. Are you sure that all the people you refer to are taking the extreme viewpoint you think? I think Zionist policy is wrong and so do some Jews i know. Are they anti semetic semites then?

I think oftentimes people don't realize they're echoing ideas put forth by racists that are packaged in such a way as to hide their racist origins.

[chipmunk stew]

Is Jew a religion or a race? Your thoughts please.

Both. But when people opine about the Jews running things, they're generally not bothered by Hava Nagila and menorahs--they're referring to bloodlines and cultural attributes.

Okay, so is zionism a religion or a race?

Neither. But when people opine about the Zionists running things, they're generally not referring to people who believe Israel has the right to exist, they're referring to a shadowy organization (of JOOOS) that is demonically evil that has an endless and bloodthirsty hunger for power and domination and will use any perverted means necessary to extend it.

[Jay Ref]

Is Jew a religion or a race? Your thoughts please.

Both. But when people opine about the Jews running things, they're generally not bothered by Hava Nagila and menorahs--they're referring to bloodlines and cultural attributes.

Okay, so is zionism a religion or a race?

Why is the answer important to you? What point are you trying to make? How does the answer fit into the "inside job" theory?

-z

[lostpomme]

I don't think that's what he said. I do understand that reading comprehension is not of paramount importance to most CTists but please try and read carefully what he wrote instead of replying to what you think he wrote.

My apologies, I'm unfamiliar with the term "TEH JOOOS". I thought it was a miss-key of the E and H.
You really do get very offensive very quickly dont you?
Are you ok?
Its quite worrying that people with your views exist. I'm only relieved that your arguments are stupid enough to be unconvincing to anyone with a degree of intellect, and thus inefectual.
A realisation is dawning... i've wasted too much time here.

"When a man uses profanity to support an argument, it indicates that either the man or the argument is weak - probably both"

[catfish]

[catfish]

Zionism promotes anti-semitism

[Jay Ref]

Zionism promotes anti-semitism

"Zionism promotes anti-semitism"??? Zionism is basically just Jews asserting their right to self-determination. Israel is the only place in the world where they can do so. It's their homeland and it's the only one they have.

If you want to criticise "Zionism" then the way to do that is to read up on the policies of the government of Israel and attack those you don't like using facts and logic. If you are not doing this you are likely just using "anti-Zionism" as a beard to disguise your anti-semitic bigotry.

It's a pretty thin beard too since when you attack Jews for conspiring to control the banks, or Hollywood, or the US Government, etc...etc...you are demonizing Jews...you are being anti-semitic.

These charges and other ancient libels have been used throughout history to justify the persecution of Jews. In turn the persecution itself led to the birth of Zionism. Now the fact of Zionism is being used to further attack Jews and give a veneer of legitimacy to the bigots.

But it's a paper-thin veneer...really you're not fooling anyone except maybe yourselves. But hey, you guys will fall for anything that even remotely justifies your extant biases.

-z

[lostpomme]

Nobody is attacking Jews due to the fact that they are Jews (Anti -Semetism) we are attacking Zionists regardless of the fact that they are Jews.
I suppose you have a sensible explanation for the pictures above? Let me guess... Nazis in fancy dress.

Give it a rest mate, no one else is listening and i'm switching off right about now.

[Jay Ref]

Nobody is attacking Jews due to the fact that they are Jews (Anti -Semetism) we are attacking Zionists regardless of the fact that they are Jews.
I suppose you have a sensible explanation for the pictures above? Let me guess... Nazis in fancy dress.

Give it a rest mate, no one else is listening and i'm switching off right about now.

Total *.

Zionism is nothing except the policy of Jewish self determinism. Zionism is the idea that Jews deserve a homeland.

Anti-semitism is an a-priori bigotry against Jews.

So, unless you similarly disparage the desire among other ethnic/religious/indigenous peoples for self-governance you are indeed singling out Jews for special treatment. In other words; you have become an anti-semite.

Why is it that the Hebrew people are the only ones in the entire world whose desire/struggle for their homeland is to you illegitimate? Face it, your hatred of "Zionism" stems from your a-priori hatred of Jews.

-z

[catfish]

[lostpomme]

Nobody is attacking Jews due to the fact that they are Jews (Anti -Semetism) we are attacking Zionists regardless of the fact that they are Jews.
I suppose you have a sensible explanation for the pictures above? Let me guess... Nazis in fancy dress.

Give it a rest mate, no one else is listening and i'm switching off right about now.

Total *.

Zionism is nothing except the policy of Jewish self determinism. Zionism is the idea that Jews deserve a homeland.

Anti-semitism is an a-priori bigotry against Jews.

So, unless you similarly disparage the desire among other ethnic/religious/indigenous peoples for self-governance you are indeed singling out Jews for special treatment. In other words; you have become an anti-semite.

Why is it that the Hebrew people are the only ones in the entire world whose desire/struggle for their homeland is to you illegitimate? Face it, your hatred of "Zionism" stems from your a-priori hatred of Jews.

-z

All people have a right to self governance and a homeland (like say the dead native Americans for instance) If Zionism ended there I'd defend it with even more vigour than you (well, maybe).
Unfortunately the pursuit of a homeland isnt what upsets people, its the removal of other peoples homeland which must ensue to reach that goal. And since not any old homeland will do then its just tough luck for those who have been there for generations. This in your mind is fair. This in my mind is not fair. Neither of us will ever change our mind. Lets just leave it at that.
Not all Jews believe that the establisment of a homeland is worth the blood being spilled, and i tend to agree.


-FROM "JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM"-

The posting of the above websites run by Jewish people opposed to Israel's policies prompted a strong reaction, indeed an over-reaction. Articles appeared on several pro-Zionist web sites denouncing this website for posting the list and denouncing any Jewish people who didn't support Ariel Sharon, dismissing them as a tiny minority of dissenters, kooks, "self hating Jews", and so forth.

So strong was the response that it called attention to itself. And it appears that popular support for Ariel Sharon may be as much of a manufactured media myth as are Bush's approval ratings.

It is easy to understand why Sharon's supporters are concerned. IDF up to the rank of General are refusing to attack civilians in Palestine. Israeli citizens are serving as human shields for Arafat. As the photos below prove, Jewish people of conscience are standing side by side with Arabs opposed to the Mideast wars and protesting in front of the Israeli embassy.

This is a critical problem for Sharon and his backers. They need the illusion that they have the support of 100% of the world's Jewish people so that they can deflect criticism by screaming "Jew hate" and "anti-Semite". Sharon and his supporters cannot justify or explain their actions against Arabs or their continued defiance of the United Nations, or their buildup of weapons of mass destruction. Their only defense is to be able to brand critics as "hate groups".

But those defenses all fall flat if Sharon's critics are themselves Jewish. The "self hating Jew" label has never worked to silence critics of Sharon's policies who are Jewish, and even Israeli. And the recent rampage of Sharon supporters engaging in hacking, threats, and obscene phone calls, is an admission that they know they have lost the argument on its merits. Only by blurring the line between criticism of Sharon's policies and racial hatred of Jews can Sharon and his supporters continue to evade the world's criticism for their war crimes. But as more and more Jewish people start to speak out against Sharon's policies, that device will simply cease to work. And that is why Sharon's supporters have reacted as strongly as they have to the suggestion that Jewish people are not in agreement with what is happening in Palestine.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



20,000 Orthodox Jews protest outside Israel's Embassy, 2/12/2002

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel - protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005 [nkusa.org]


Click for full sized image

[chek]

Game set and match - good one Catfish.
Don't these liars even know when they're lying now?
Misinformation and disinformation - what a world they must live in.

[lostpomme]

Yep, good work dave. Once again highlighting my wasted minutes at formulating replies to old arguments long since rendered futile. The photo's do more than enough and prevent more wasted time.

[chipmunk stew]

All people have a right to self governance and a homeland (like say the dead native Americans for instance) If Zionism ended there I'd defend it with even more vigour than you (well, maybe).
Unfortunately the pursuit of a homeland isnt what upsets people, its the removal of other peoples homeland which must ensue to reach that goal. And since not any old homeland will do then its just tough luck for those who have been there for generations. This in your mind is fair. This in my mind is not fair. Neither of us will ever change our mind. Lets just leave it at that.
Not all Jews believe that the establisment of a homeland is worth the blood being spilled, and i tend to agree.

That last point is a valid position to take. Your assessment of who took what land from whom is a bit more complicated than your simplistic analysis, though. I suggest you inform yourself about the history of Palestine (which has never been a state, btw) and consider what it really means to be Palestinian before you make a summary judgment. This is a pretty good brief timeline:
http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm

[Jay Ref]

Nobody is attacking Jews due to the fact that they are Jews (Anti -Semetism) we are attacking Zionists regardless of the fact that they are Jews.
I suppose you have a sensible explanation for the pictures above? Let me guess... Nazis in fancy dress.

Give it a rest mate, no one else is listening and i'm switching off right about now.

Total *.

Zionism is nothing except the policy of Jewish self determinism. Zionism is the idea that Jews deserve a homeland.

Anti-semitism is an a-priori bigotry against Jews.

So, unless you similarly disparage the desire among other ethnic/religious/indigenous peoples for self-governance you are indeed singling out Jews for special treatment. In other words; you have become an anti-semite.

Why is it that the Hebrew people are the only ones in the entire world whose desire/struggle for their homeland is to you illegitimate? Face it, your hatred of "Zionism" stems from your a-priori hatred of Jews.

-z

All people have a right to self governance and a homeland (like say the dead native Americans for instance) If Zionism ended there I'd defend it with even more vigour than you (well, maybe).
Unfortunately the pursuit of a homeland isnt what upsets people, its the removal of other peoples homeland which must ensue to reach that goal. And since not any old homeland will do then its just tough luck for those who have been there for generations. This in your mind is fair. This in my mind is not fair. Neither of us will ever change our mind. Lets just leave it at that.
Not all Jews believe that the establisment of a homeland is worth the blood being spilled, and i tend to agree.


-FROM "JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM"-

The posting of the above websites run by Jewish people opposed to Israel's policies prompted a strong reaction, indeed an over-reaction. Articles appeared on several pro-Zionist web sites denouncing this website for posting the list and denouncing any Jewish people who didn't support Ariel Sharon, dismissing them as a tiny minority of dissenters, kooks, "self hating Jews", and so forth.

So strong was the response that it called attention to itself. And it appears that popular support for Ariel Sharon may be as much of a manufactured media myth as are Bush's approval ratings.

It is easy to understand why Sharon's supporters are concerned. IDF up to the rank of General are refusing to attack civilians in Palestine. Israeli citizens are serving as human shields for Arafat. As the photos below prove, Jewish people of conscience are standing side by side with Arabs opposed to the Mideast wars and protesting in front of the Israeli embassy.

This is a critical problem for Sharon and his backers. They need the illusion that they have the support of 100% of the world's Jewish people so that they can deflect criticism by screaming "Jew hate" and "anti-Semite". Sharon and his supporters cannot justify or explain their actions against Arabs or their continued defiance of the United Nations, or their buildup of weapons of mass destruction. Their only defense is to be able to brand critics as "hate groups".

But those defenses all fall flat if Sharon's critics are themselves Jewish. The "self hating Jew" label has never worked to silence critics of Sharon's policies who are Jewish, and even Israeli. And the recent rampage of Sharon supporters engaging in hacking, threats, and obscene phone calls, is an admission that they know they have lost the argument on its merits. Only by blurring the line between criticism of Sharon's policies and racial hatred of Jews can Sharon and his supporters continue to evade the world's criticism for their war crimes. But as more and more Jewish people start to speak out against Sharon's policies, that device will simply cease to work. And that is why Sharon's supporters have reacted as strongly as they have to the suggestion that Jewish people are not in agreement with what is happening in Palestine.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



20,000 Orthodox Jews protest outside Israel's Embassy, 2/12/2002

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel - protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005 [nkusa.org]


Click for full sized image

That's all well and good but again it's a * argument. When you scream that "zionists" control the banks, media, government, NWO, etc you are making anti-semitic arguments. The fact that you use the term "zionist" instead of Jew is a thin beard indeed. That you think anyone is fooled because you use one term instead of the other while saying the same old things is truly a hallmark of anti-semitic stupidity.

You want to argue Israeli policies? Not anti-semitic. You argue against Israel's right to exist at all? That is antisemitic.

Pictures of Jewish dissidents don't make your own arguments any more legitimate.

-z

[MiniMauve]

You want to argue Israeli policies? Not anti-semitic. You argue against Israel's right to exist at all? That is antisemitic.

This is simply not true. One can agree that a jewish state can, perhaps even should, exist, but also argue that the current state of Israel should not have been created in the location and manner that it was created. It's a political conclusion. Nothing anti-semitic at all. In the same way that some Irish argue that Northern Ireland should not have been created are not being anti-british by believing so.

[DaveyJ]

yes, but can you actually meet an irish man who dosnt think northen Ireland shouldnt of been created, but dosnt put the word f*cking before British every time he says it.

and imho it goes the same for anti-semitic/zionists whatever, really peoples opinions and prejudice still stay the same, no matter what their politcal stance is.
________
how to roll a blunt

[jsut_peopel]

In the same way that some Irish argue that Northern Ireland should not have been created are not being anti-british by believing so.

Really?

[marky 54]

In the same way that some Irish argue that Northern Ireland should not have been created are not being anti-british by believing so.

Really?

if your anti anything then its that specific thing your against, so if miniwave was anti-british then it would be the british people and the nation he'd be against not the manner in which something was done or something that happened, if this is the case then it can be reversed. for example britian are anti-irish for taking over what was once their land. you carnt be anti any race or homeland just because you dont agree with them. anti is used to loosly to accuse people who dont agree with people. i dont think america should of gone into iraq and dont agree with how they are doing things that dosnt make me anti-american. it just means i dont agree with issues. i hate = anti. i dont like the way = disagree(tagged as anti by others in order to make people agree with them because they dont want to be accused of being anti-whatever). if you disagree with me on this post then your anti-other peoples opinions

[catfish]

Any insinuation that I am a racist is misguided, inaccurate and libelous. Criticising a religious or political ideal is not racist.

This whole topic is a mine-field that perhaps most would rather not cross. But those who will breach it will find that all is not as it seems.

Don't be afraid of being branded a racist by ignorant or willing disinformationists. Read chipmunks link http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm and then research the information further. Particularly the events of the last century (which are the most relevant after all.)

I will say further that I am critical of ALL organised religion and political zealotry.
I know that each man must find his own path to unburdening himself in this wondrous creation and the best any organisation can offer is more rules to tie yourself up in.

peace and water power

David

[MiniMauve]

yes, but can you actually meet an irish man who dosnt think northen Ireland shouldnt of been created, but dosnt put the word f*cking before British every time he says it.

Yes, I have. Lots of them, in fact. You need to stop believing the mainstream media which ALWAYS focuses on extremes to sell their stories.

and imho it goes the same for anti-semitic/zionists whatever, really peoples opinions and prejudice still stay the same, no matter what their politcal stance is.

I admire Jewish tenacity and intelligence, and I admire the determination and work ethic that created Israel but I also think it was a bad choice of location and selfish of them to ignore the plight of the arabs whose lands they chose to build upon. Both populations (palestinian and israeli) continue to pay for that bad choice to this day. Does that make me anti-semitic? Are my views merely a thin screen for underlying prejudice? Or am I to believe that my view is singularly rare, as you seem to think it is? I'm sorry but I have a little more faith in mankind. There is much evidence that millions of people in this plant do have political views untarnished by prejudice.

[MiniMauve]

In the same way that some Irish argue that Northern Ireland should not have been created are not being anti-british by believing so.

Really?

Yes, Really. Is this so hard to believe? Maybe the world isn't so black and white as you imagine? I even know British who think Northern Ireland shouldn't have been created and southern Irish who think it's a good thing it was. Shades of grey, my friend, shades of grey.