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You're all wrong - George Monbiot says so
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: You're all wrong - George Monbiot says so Reply with quote

Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2006529,00.html
A 9/11 conspiracy virus is sweeping the world, but it has no basis in fact

Loose Change is a sharp, slick film with an authoritative voiceover, but it drowns the truth in an ocean of nonsense

George Monbiot
Tuesday February 6, 2007
The Guardian

There is a virus sweeping the world. It infects opponents of the Bush government, sucks their brains out through their eyes and turns them into gibbering idiots. First cultivated in a laboratory in the US, the strain reached these shores a few months ago. In the past fortnight, it has become an epidemic. Scarcely a day now passes without someone possessed by this sickness, eyes rolling, lips flecked with foam, trying to infect me.

The disease is called Loose Change. It is a film made by three young men that airs most of the standard conspiracy theories about the attacks of September 11 2001. Unlike the other 9/11 conspiracy films, Loose Change is sharp and swift, with a thumping soundtrack, slick graphics and a calm and authoritative voiceover. Its makers claim that it has now been watched by 100 million people.

The Pentagon, the film maintains, was not hit by a commercial airliner. There was "no discernible trace" of a plane found in the wreckage, and the entrance and exit holes in the building were far too small. It was hit by a cruise missile. The twin towers were brought down by means of "a carefully planned controlled demolition". You can see the small puffs of smoke caused by explosives just below the cascading sections. All other hypotheses are implausible: the fire was not hot enough to melt steel and the towers fell too quickly. Building 7 was destroyed by the same means a few hours later.

Flight 93 did not crash, but was redirected to Cleveland airport, where the passengers were taken into a Nasa building and never seen again. Their voices had been cloned by the Los Alamos laboratories and used to make fake calls to their relatives. The footage of Osama bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the attacks, was faked. The US government carried out this great crime for four reasons: to help Larry Silverstein, who leased the towers, to collect his insurance money; to assist insider traders betting on falling airline stocks; to steal the gold in the basement; and to grant George Bush new executive powers, so that he could carry out his plans for world domination.

Even if you have seen or read no other accounts of 9/11, and your brain has not yet been liquidised, a few problems must occur to you. The first is the complete absence of scientific advice. At one point, the presenter asks: "So what brought down the twin towers? Let's ask the experts." But they don't ask the experts. The film-makers take some old quotes, edit them to remove any contradictions, then denounce all subsequent retractions as further evidence of conspiracy.

The only people they interview are a janitor, a group of firemen, and a flight instructor. They let the janitor speak at length, but cut the firemen off in mid-sentence. The flight instructor speaks in short clips, which give the impression that his pupil, the hijacker Hani Hanjour, was incapable of hitting the Pentagon. Elsewhere he has said the opposite: he had "no doubt" that Hanjour could have done it.

Where are the structural engineers, the materials scientists, the specialists in ballistics, explosives or fire? The film-makers now say that the third edition of the film will be fact-checked by an expert, but he turns out to be "a theology professor". They don't name him, but I would bet that it's David Ray Griffin, who also happens to be the high priest of the 9/11 conspiracists.

The next evident flaw is that the plot they propose must have involved tens of thousands of people. It could not have been executed without the help of demolition experts, the security firms guarding the World Trade Centre, Mayor Giuliani (who hastily disposed of the remains), much of the US air force, the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defence Command, the relatives of the people "killed" in the plane crashes, the rest of the Pentagon's staff, the Los Alamos laboratories, the FBI, the CIA, and the investigators who picked through the rubble.

If there is one universal American characteristic, it is a confessional culture that permits no one with a good story to keep his mouth shut. People appear on the Jerry Springer Show to admit to carnal relations with their tractors. Yet none of the participants in this monumental crime has sought to blow the whistle - before, during or after the attacks. No one has volunteered to tell the greatest story ever told.

Read some conflicting accounts, and Loose Change's case crumbles faster than the twin towers. Hundreds of people saw a plane hit the Pentagon. Because it collided with one of the world's best-defended buildings at full speed, the plane was pulverised - even so, plane parts and body parts were in fact recovered. The wings and tail disintegrated when they hit the wall, which is why the holes weren't bigger.

The failure of the twin towers has been exhaustively documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Far from being impossible, the collapse turns out to have been inevitable. The planes cut some of the support columns and ignited fires sufficient to weaken (but not melt) the remaining steel structures. As the perimeter columns buckled, the weight of the collapsing top stories generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest. Puffs of smoke were blown out of the structure by compression as the building fell.

Counterpunch, the radical leftwing magazine, commissioned its own expert - an aerospace and mechanical engineer - to test the official findings. He shows that the institute must have been right. He also demonstrates how Building 7 collapsed. Burning debris falling from the twin towers ruptured the oil pipes feeding its emergency generators. The reduction in pressure triggered the automatic pumping system, which poured thousands of gallons of diesel on to the fire. The support trusses weakened and buckled, and the building imploded. Popular Mechanics magazine polled 300 experts and came to the same conclusions.

So the critics - even Counterpunch - are labelled co-conspirators, and the plot expands until it comes to involve a substantial part of the world's population. There is no reasoning with this madness. People believe Loose Change because it proposes a closed world: comprehensible, controllable, small. Despite the great evil that runs it, it is more companionable than the chaos that really governs our lives, a world without destination or purpose. This neat story draws campaigners away from real issues - global warming, the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, privatisation, inequality - while permanently wrecking their credibility. Bush did capitalise on the attacks, and he did follow a pre-existing agenda, spelt out, as Loose Change says, by the Project for the New American Century. But by drowning this truth in an ocean of nonsense, the conspiracists ensure that it can never again be taken seriously.

The film's greatest flaw is this: the men who made it are still alive. If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago? There is only one possible explanation. They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. This, if you are inclined to believe such stories, is surely a more plausible theory than the one proposed in Loose Change.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beat me to it. i like monbiot. counterpunch is an ad driven site, about it being the leftest of the left. silly talk
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the strain reached these shores a few months ago.

If he can get it that wrong in the first paragraph I can't be bothered to read the rest. Drivel no doubt.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hilarious.

Perhaps George could take some time off from saving his planet and show the world the mechanism that caused the Twin Towers and WTC7 to fall to the ground as fast as they did.

Despite his assertion that NIST and other assorted government funded "experts" have provided this proof, there is one tiny flaw in that assertion George. They haven't. Neither have they ever claimed to have provided said explanations. We've had pancake collapse, progressive collapse and global collapse, yet none can explain away the laws of physics George. That's the point you need to address.

The world is over 5 years down the tyrannical road George, and nobody knows the official explanation for why WTC7 fell to the ground and how NIST's analysis of the Twin Towers "up to the point of collapse" resulted in those buildings being demolished so fast.

If you really knew what you were talking about George, you would have known that wouldn't you.

NORAD have changed their story so many times that even you George must have reasonable doubt.

The irony in Monbiot's risbile "article" is that he finally relies on a conspiracy theory to prove his point. Stunningly hilarious.

George's conspiracy is that the makers of Loose Change are part of a government operation to distract us from the "real abuses of power" and relies on their longevity for his proof.

For all I know George you could be right. Let's suppose you are.

You are a conspiracy theorist.

If you really do not believe that 9/11 was the New Pearl Harbour called for in your admitted, PNAC blueprint for full spectrum domination and the subsequent invasions of two sovereign nations, so far, and the murder of 100's of thousands of innocent people are "real abuses of power" then you are seriously disconnected from reality.

Are we therefore to asume that your environmental analysis of climate change is founded on similar blind spots George ?

Given that you are by no means noted for your expertise on 9/11 and flase flag terrorism, would it be acceptable to you for a comparative environmental ignoramus, to issue forth about climate change ?

If you really think that your readers are bound to swallow your drivel George then I conclude you have done yourself and the Guardian much more harm than you have attempted to inflict on those that doubt the 9/11 Commission report's version of reality.

Perhaps next time your editor asks you to knock off a piece on 9/11 George you could give us your analysis of the 9/11 Commission Report.

Stick to what you do best George, making a living out of the environment and "climate change".

A very poor attempt to coral any would be strays from the Green pen.

Embarrassing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly I think a lot of readers will accept this article unquestioningly and be glad that Loose Change is just a 'lot of nonsense'.

Despite this, the comments on the wepage are encouraging!

Loose Change is simply too easy to debunk. Too much speculation. Although it asks the right questions it harms its own message by trying to answer them.

Still, all publicity and that.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work Mark.

I've got a comment up there too.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monbiot hasn't done himself any favours.

Is this the dénouement of the Guardian piece on LC last week I wonder.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loose change is gonns have to be changed to omit the out there theories.

May have the potential to be very harmful to the movement.

Theres a chap on the webcameron site who id having NOTHING of the movement, explaining everything away, saying diesel pipes were damaged in WTC 7 by debris from 1 and 2, says the pipes pumped 30,000 gallons of diesel into WTC 7????

Guys we need some help on webcameron with this guy, maybe we not arguing it right but nonetheless need help. heres the link:

http://www.webcameron.org.uk/blogs/2398-4#comments

this is toughest nut to crack yet lol!!

Ade.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just sent this off:

Quote:
I believed the official version of events like everyone else - after all, like most people, I sat glued to the TV watching the events unfurl. America had been attacked by a bunch of crazed Islamic extremists who wanted to deal a dreadful blow to the values of the decadent West. I had that viewpoint for only three weeks. A friend of mine, who is a commercial airline pilot and who actually flies 757s for a living, rang me and fired off a dozen reasons why he felt that no airliner the size of 757 had hit the Pentagon. Apart from the fact that the downward spiral approach to the Pentagon would have been virtually impossible for a skilled pilot(why didn't Hani Hanjours just simply fly straight into the roof of the building?), how could the nose cone of a 757, made up of carbon fibre, penetrate not only the outer reinforced wall of the Pentagon but five other walls as well? And why have we seen no footage from the dozens of security cameras that cover every inch of the building? And why was the air defence system that protects the White House, Pentagon and Capitol Hill not triggered? There comes a point when you realise that the official conspiracy theory - and it is just a conspiracy theory as we have never been offered the proof promised by Condoleezza Rice that Osama bin Laden had planned and executed the operation from his cave in Afghanistan - can only be believed once you are prepared to accept dozens of extreme coincidences and the complete suspension of the Laws of Physics for one day. And if you follow the trail of money.........cui bono? George, my friend, you are going to rue the day you wrote this article.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject: Response to G. Monbiot Reply with quote

Posted at : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2006831,00.html

It is most opportune that George Monbiot should attempt to debunk the 9/11 Truth Campaign and use crass one-liners to dismiss the content of Loose Change II, which just so happens to be the most downloaded video in the history of Google Video. Ultimately, it is for each individual to decide whether or not they accept the official account of any major event at face value. However, it is evident that there is growing public concern, both in the US and in the UK, over the veracity of the official version of what actually transpired on that fateful day in September 2001.

The most outrageous of claims made by George Monbiot is that, “No one has volunteered to tell the greatest story ever told.”

A statement that is either indicative of a staggering lack of intellectual curiosity or an intentional lie! The list of whistle-blowers is extensive but I will draw attention to just two. Sibel Edmonds, a former FBI Translator, has the dubious honour of being the most gagged individual in US legal history. In reference to the 9/11 Commission investigation Edmonds stated, "If they were to do real investigations we would see several significant high level criminal prosecutions in this country. And that is something that they are not going to let out. And, believe me; they will do everything to cover this up."

However, it is William Rodriguez, a Janitor at the World Trade Centre for 20 years, who has become the most vocal advocate of establishing a new investigation into the events of 9/11. As the last man out of WTC1, Rodriguez was widely recognised and revered as the hero of 9/11. Awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour by the President and recognised as a tireless campaigner on behalf of the WTC survivors and families of the victims, Rodriguez was stunned when he became one of only three people required to give their evidence to the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors. The other two being President G.W. Bush & vice-President Dick Cheney, who refused to appear before the Commission separately and who refused to take the oath. When Rodriguez learned that his evidence had been omitted from the 9/11 Commission report, he realised that the 9/11 Commission more about bolstering the official account than uncovering the truth. For the past two and a half years, Rodriguez has met with government officials in many countries, including Malaysia, Venezuela & Japan, campaigning for an international inquiry into the events which have triggered two illegal wars, an open ended War on Terror and provided Bush & Blair with the excuse to introduce legislation that takes the US & UK to the fringes of being police states. (Bush at least makes no bones about his extremist right wing tendencies but what is Blair’s excuse?)

Well, it just so happens that William Rodriguez in just a few days into a month long tour of the UK; giving audiences the opportunity to hear his gripping first-hand account of that fateful day. He will also be discussing his extraordinary experiences since that day and explaining why he has dedicated his life to establishing the truth behind the events of 9/11.

250 people attended William’s talk in Totnes, Devon last Sunday evening. A local BBC film crew covered the event but afterwards the camera operator grimaced as he said, “There’s no chance of this being broadcast … our bosses will find a reason not to put this out.”
Now, why do you think that might be?

For details of William’s UK tour dates visit: www.last-man-out.com

Ian R. Crane
Chair – 9/11 Truth Campaign (UK & Ireland)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin wrote:
I've just sent this off:

Quote:
I believed the official version of events like everyone else - after all, like most people, I sat glued to the TV watching the events unfurl. America had been attacked by a bunch of crazed Islamic extremists who wanted to deal a dreadful blow to the values of the decadent West. I had that viewpoint for only three weeks. A friend of mine, who is a commercial airline pilot and who actually flies 757s for a living, rang me and fired off a dozen reasons why he felt that no airliner the size of 757 had hit the Pentagon. Apart from the fact that the downward spiral approach to the Pentagon would have been virtually impossible for a skilled pilot(why didn't Hani Hanjours just simply fly straight into the roof of the building?), how could the nose cone of a 757, made up of carbon fibre, penetrate not only the outer reinforced wall of the Pentagon but five other walls as well? And why have we seen no footage from the dozens of security cameras that cover every inch of the building? And why was the air defence system that protects the White House, Pentagon and Capitol Hill not triggered? There comes a point when you realise that the official conspiracy theory - and it is just a conspiracy theory as we have never been offered the proof promised by Condoleezza Rice that Osama bin Laden had planned and executed the operation from his cave in Afghanistan - can only be believed once you are prepared to accept dozens of extreme coincidences and the complete suspension of the Laws of Physics for one day. And if you follow the trail of money.........cui bono? George, my friend, you are going to rue the day you wrote this article.


Hi Justin

Sometimes you get thoughts in your head --- so here we go.

You could be a MP for the "Tell The Truth Party"

The constituency would need to be where the electorate are not dyed in the wool for any particular party and would be responsive to a door to door campaign carried out in the week leading up to the election.

It would be fcuking great and I'm sure we could get a lot of campaigners for you off this site alone.

Are you up for it --- you have my vote?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought these two offerings might amuse you - when I wrote my second contribution to this thread (under the name of Cartondewiart) I couldn't have asked for a better person to go before me to prove my point!!!

Quote:
thegoldenhorde

February 6, 2007 01:55 PM

Usually I am not a fan of Mr Monbiot, but credit where it is due, this piece speaks absolute sense.

As for those of you who actually believe this nonsense about the twin towers being blown up in an explosion – YOU ARE UTTER MORONS.
There is no other explanation for the sort of f-u-c-kwittery that underpins Loose Change, and I honestly propose the re introduction of the stocks so we can publicly humiliate anyone who thinks, that Israel, the US, or anyone apart from the real killers. IE 19 blokes from the gulf . did it.


Cartondewiart (me)

February 6, 2007 01:58 PM

Having read all the comments so far, I'm gratified to see that those who are doubtful about the official 9/11 version of events tend to be polite, questionning and thoughtful, whilst those who support the official story tend to resort to swear words, insults and unbelievable smugness. The latter just love having a go at 'conspiracy theorists'. Had they been alive in 1933 they would be telling everyone that the Communists burnt down the Reichstag and anyone suggesting otherwise was a crazy crackpot conspiracy theorist out to destabilise the future of their country.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thetruthwillsetu3

Quote:
Hi Justin

Sometimes you get thoughts in your head --- so here we go.

You could be a MP for the "Tell The Truth Party"

The constituency would need to be where the electorate are not dyed in the wool for any particular party and would be responsive to a door to door campaign carried out in the week leading up to the election.

It would be fcuking great and I'm sure we could get a lot of campaigners for you off this site alone.

Are you up for it --- you have my vote?


You are very kind but I have my ego firmly under control and the last place on earth I would want to be sent is the House of Commons. I was in the Green Party for 15 years and I have seen how a political party playing to win - even the Green Party - can divide friends and cause well meaning and honest people to become cunning and economic with the truth so as to win votes. Steer well clear of political parties per se - let's take a leaf out of Mahatma Gandhi.....we are a truth movement and our main objective, apart from exposing the events of 9/11, is to break down the political and economic systems that have allowed a tiny elite minority for hundreds, if not thousands of years, to control, divide and rule the overwhelming majority who simply want peace, love and happiness.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work Justin:-

Quote:
Having read all the comments so far, I'm gratified to see that those who are doubtful about the official 9/11 version of events tend to be polite, questionning and thoughtful, whilst those who support the official story tend to resort to swear words, insults and unbelievable smugness.


Totally agree with that. And when you invite them to provide solid evidence to support the official conspiracy theory of 911 the response is consistent:- negative.

Your spot on imo with the political game, its all totally controlled by those lurking in the shadows...........reminds me of a Punch and Judy show!

911 truth exposure is the key to expose those pulling the strings.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best advert for monty pythons 'Life Of Brian'...
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/7/78/Life_of_Brian_bbc_d iscussion.jpg

The best advert for music...
http://www.riaa.com/images/parentaladvisory.gif

The best advert ever for 'Loose Change'...
Quote:
There is a virus sweeping the world. It infects opponents of the Bush government, sucks their brains out through their eyes and turns them into gibbering idiots. First cultivated in a laboratory in the US, the strain reached these shores a few months ago. In the past fortnight, it has become an epidemic. Scarcely a day now passes without someone possessed by this sickness, eyes rolling, lips flecked with foam, trying to infect me.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: my letter to Guardian Reply with quote

In his article on 9/11, George Monbiot claims that, "The failure of the twin towers has been exhaustively documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology." But he but fails to mention that NIST has not yet pronounced on how the 47 storey Building 7 (WTC7) collapsed in just over 6 seconds. Perhaps readers should watch short online video clips of WTC7's collapse, and make up their own minds as to whether it was
"thousands of gallons of diesel" burning which caused it to collapse, or a controlled demolition.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I phoned the news editor today and (very subltly) told her what I thought of the article. I gave her my phone number and asked her to tell Monbiot to attend my talk at UEL tomorrow....I doubt she passed the message on.

Cant say I`m surprised.

Dont be too hard on Mobiot; I suspect he's been fed some 'rotten fish' if you know what I mean.

C.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skeptic wrote:
Sadly I think a lot of readers will accept this article unquestioningly and be glad that Loose Change is just a 'lot of nonsense'.

Despite this, the comments on the wepage are encouraging!

Loose Change is simply too easy to debunk. Too much speculation. Although it asks the right questions it harms its own message by trying to answer them.

Still, all publicity and that.


Ziopedia says about Dylan Avery

Quote:
Avery had just finished high school. He'd long been a film buff, a fan of Tarantino, Fight Club and The Matrix. He was inspired to begin writing a novel/film-script. He began toying with the idea of a fictional work that would explore the fantasy that 9/11 hadn't been carried out by 19 Arabs with box-cutters, but by the American government as an attack on the minds of its own people. At that point, he was writing pure fiction. But as he began researching September 11 for background to the story, he began to come across evidence that made him change direction. All the footage and the eyewitness accounts he gathered, he says, "just didn't add up".


http://www.ziopedia.org/content/view/3120/58/

>>>A likely story!!!!

Another take on Loose Change

Quote:
A bunch of Jewish kids, financed through the Simon family, produce a silly video filled with half truths.


http://judicial-inc.biz/Loose_change.htm

No guarantee who is fibbing of course. You have to suss it out.

9-11: Controlling the Message

http://www.iamthewitness.com/Bollyn-9-11-Controlling-the-Message.html

Quote:
"I can't talk about the Israeli involvement because it would offend the Jewish families," Rodriguez said, referring to the relatives of Jewish victims. Yet, Rodriguez has important information about the involvement of Israeli intelligence agents in the attacks.

For example, he has personal knowledge that Israeli Mossad agents, posing as employees of a moving company in New Jersey, met regularly with some of the Arab terror suspects at a video store a block from his home in Jersey City during the year prior to the attacks.


Perhaps some nineeleven Rodriguez tour helper might like to query William in private on this?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago? There is only one possible explanation. They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. This, if you are inclined to believe such stories, is surely a more plausible theory than the one proposed in Loose Change.


In other words if one says the truth you would be bumped off by Bush. So if George is saying the truth that 9/11 was carried out by a man in a cave how come he is still alive? Blowing up two buildings in a city has now become an all-encompassing conspiracy?

Believing the official conspiracy theory like Marina Hyde in the Guardian, the Editorials which have supported all the 9/11 oil wars isn't part of the neo-con agenda but a reality check.

The embedded 'left' like the right are the last apologists for the Bush regime. When they start to use the arguement that the 9/11 truth movement isn't concerned about further wars, privatisation of resources, the degradation of the environment etc. this is to justify his position which is encompassed in his monthly paycheck.

The last people on earth who will ever question 9/11 will be journalists. They are the political whores of the biggest conspiracy of them all. The Bush neo-cons, nothing more nothing less.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Israel didnt do it was what someone here said right?

There's as much chance of them "doing" it as the Bush Administration because Israelies were sent to New York to "record the event". They even say so on Israelie news (the actual Israelies who were in New York that is). Interviewed on the program and thats what they said.

Almost like a time traveller being sent back in time to record the event: The birth of christ!!

Israel Knew something, if US didnt know what was coming because their Intelligence so poor then sorry but the US would have been wiped of the map from terrorist attacks by now!

Ade.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StopThe9/11CoverUp wrote:
Israel didnt do it was what someone here said right?


I don't know if Israel were involved or not but certainly they had: means, motive and opportunity. Many people seem to ignore that fact.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyone notice this letter in today's Guardian?



Quote:
Perhaps the Loose Change brigade (Comment, February 6) might devote more time to investigating the "real" conspiracy? It seems likely, does it not, that 9/11 and 7/7 conspiracy theories are part of a CIA/MI6 conspiracy to discredit their critics, and to make other reasonable propositions about government machinations appear equally preposterous? And, after all, at least one former member of MI5 is a key proponent of the hologram planes and the phantom trains.
Peter McKenna
Manchester Metropolitan University

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if Peter McKenna is correct then David Shayler & Annie Machon are not doing a very good job are they.

The notion that anyone who questions the role of our insecurity services involvement in false flag terrorism, is somehow part of a plan by those agencies to provoke false flag scepticism, assumes that those sceptics are being led by the nose, cannot think for themselves and are being led by ex-spooks into a blind alley.

Shayler speaks of no planes. My mum believes the government's version. So what ?

That is: Shayler speaks of no planes.

Which is not: everyone who questions the involvement of our insecurity services in promoting false flag terrorism speak of no planes.

As for trains, the only phantom trains on 7/7 that have been mentioned, have been published by our wonderful government, in their pathetic narrative, no doubt ably researched and advised by our insecurity services and police.

The reason for such remarkable "mishtake", we still await, as do the victim's families.

Neither Shayler, Machon, or any other sceptic, ex-spook or otherwise has introduced phantom trains Mr McKenna, your government, insecurity services and police did that, completely on their own.

The point you might like to address Mr McKenna, is that our insecurity services are unaccountable. No matter what your criticism of them may be, conventional or not, they do not need to listen. Just like our government. But you know that don't you.

Among other spooky alumni, even the mad bad and dangerous Mr Shayler tells you that.

What is the matter with these people ?

Dr Peter McKenna can be contacted here: p.mckenna@mmu.ac.uk

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

readers respond:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2007936,00.html

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A letter from Elias in Iceland

Sir, Madam,

George Monbiot is treating me as a "gibbering idiot" in his article on
the socalled "9/11 conspiracy virus" published on your pages today,
February 6th 2007
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2006830,00.html). I
confess to be one of those who has been "infected by a virus", the
virus of skepticism towards the official fairy-tale on 9/11. This
virus, according to Mr. Monbiot, has "sucked my brains through my eyes"
and made my "lips foam" and my "eyes roll". I really did not know!

I think that even presumed patients like me deserve a right to respond
to Mr. Monbiot's hallucinations.

First of all, most veterans skeptics on 9/11, such as myself, have not
been infected by the film "Loose Change" which the author considers as
the origin of the "virus". We have studied the events of 9/11 long
before the film was even conceived. Using our common-sense and
critical faculties, we have discovered numerous anomalies,
contradictions and misrepresentations in the official account on the
events of September 11, 2001. So many in fact, that they fill volumes.
I refer readers to Paul Thompson's excellent timeline on 9/11, posted
on www.cooperativeresearch.org and the books on 9/11 by Prof. David Ray
Griffin, whose academic credentials are beyond dispute, but is referred
demeaningly by Mr. Monbiot as a "high priest" of 9/11 conspiracists
(sic).

As Mr. Monbiot is so confident that the official tale on 9/11 is true
and that he can safely dismiss 9/11 skeptics as "gibbering idiots", I
hereby offer to him a prize of £1500 if he can send to me or have
published on the pages of The Guardian within the next two weeks any
verifiable evidence that proves - beyond reasonable doubt (the standard
of proof in criminal cases) - that the 19 individuals named by the FBI
as the hijackers of 9/11, actually boarded the aircraft which crashed
on 9/11. Without such proof, it is simply indecent to accuse these
individuals of mass murder, let alone commit the crime of aggression
against Afghanistan, start an indefinite "war on terror" and lie to the
world. Should Mr. Monbiot fail to substantiate the allegation that
these 19 individuals have boarded the aircraft of 9/11, I expect him
to issue a public excuse to the families of the 19 individuals he
implicitly accused of mass murder, to the families of the victims of
9/11 and to the readers of the Guardian. The Guardian's journalists
can feel free to spend the rest of their lives looking for evidence
which does not exist and has never existed.

Elias Davidsson
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This response from Ian henshall

GEORGE MONBIOT CATCHES A VIRUS

Whichever side of the nine eleven debate we stand we can probably
agree that the media did get it right about one thing: nine eleven
changed everything. It has put George Monbiot in the same camp as the
Hearst Corporation and the CIA in denouncing the 911 truth movement.
It has put Hugo Chavez and Zbig Brzezinski on the other side of the
divide. Chavez recently stated that the Twin Towers may have been
brought down by explosives and Brzezinski, who tricked the USSR into
disaster in Afghanistan when he was in power, warned Congress that
America may use a terrorist attack on the us mainland as part of the
preparation for an attack on Iran. Zbig did not tell Congress quite
explicitly that the attack could be planned by the administration but
how else would it fit into the military's schedules?

This is of course one of the reasons why people in the nine eleven
truth movement got suspicious in the first place: the timing of nine
eleven was just too damn suspicious. It was worth looking into, and
we found a can of worms. Monbiot did not want to look into the can,
even though nine eleven had wrecked the anti-globalisation movement
and boosted Bush, his big enemy. Fair enough, thought the activists,
he doesn't want to poison the well of trust in a governing system
which the social Democratic left still hope they can take over after
a hundred years of trying. Perhaps he just wants to leave it to
somebody else to do the dirty work.

But now Monbiot has tragically lost it. In a rant against the "virus"
of "conspiracism" he is now trying to bully the movement that trusted
him into toeing a new party line. Monbiot after years of good work
has joined the sneering elite. But surely he has some reason? Not
really, on a close examination Monbiot's article is a trail of bad
logic irrelevant detail and deceit by omission. Just what you would
expect if you take Popular Mechanics book on the "911 Myths", as your
gospel, published by the Hearst Corporation, introduced by Senator
"torture lite" John McCain, and researched by the cousin of Bush
Homeland Security boss Michael Chertoff.

Monbiot's big stick is the NIST report, the official report on how
the Twin Towers collapsed. Monbiot who has made a career out of Bush
hating, who has drawn attention to Bush's abuse of government
scientists when it comes to global warming, takes as gospel their
report into the collapse of the World Trade Centre. The metal was
softened by the fires, ergo they collapsed. That the top section of
each building was able to overcome the entire structural and inertial
resistance of the vast building below it, change much of it into
pulverised concrete, and still reach the ground in near freefall time
is no problem for someone supposed to be scientifically literate. Is
Monbiot really unaware NIST only ever looked at how the collapse may
have begun. Can pundits really be this lazy? That's not the only
problem: nowhere did NIST produce evidence that the temperatures
exceeded 300 degrees let alone the 600 degrees needed over a
prolonged period for the metal to lose even half of its strength. The
architect who designed the Towers to resist collision with a large
passenger jet must be turning in his grave.

At the risk of being boring let me mention one more detail. Monbiot
sneers that the film Loose Change gives too much time to the
building's janitor. He fails to mention that William Rodriguez the
chief janitor, an American national hero, was cut off by the media
when he emerged as a cogent eyewitness to support the allegation,
reported by virtually everyone at the time, that the Towers had been
brought down by preset explosives. When it became clear that Osama
bin laden could not have done this the official line changed, the
firemen were bullied into line by Mayor Giuliani (Monbiot seems
unaware of the oral histories, released after a ferocious court
battle, which make that clear) but Rodriguez stood firm. He was in
the basement at the time. The seismic evidence supports Rodriguez,
and unfortunately for the CIA the Hearst Corporation and George
Monbiot it cannot be manipulated by political diktat.

There are kernels of truth in Monbiot's world of viruses. 911 people
can be boring. They have a different strategy to wake up the public
to the ugly reality of the Empire. Loose Change is an emotional
populist production of immense power. It does get some things wrong,
the makers are not so stupid as to believe they have access to
absolute truth when there has been a pervasive smokescreen placed
over the events. To this day for instance the US government has never
produced a photo to prove that flight seventy seven actually did hit
the Pentagon. Its passengers included (yes this may just be a
coincidence) CNN's neocon darling Barbara Olson, and three executives
from the Raytheon Corporation one of whose specialities is the remote
control of aircraft. To this day there is no photograph of any of the
alleged hijackers as they boarded the aircraft. The alleged mobile
phone calls could not have taken place and have been quietly changed
into airphone calls, but they still cannot explain how eight pilots
were overpowered and no hijack warning was given on any transponder.

How could a grand conspiracy have succeeded? It relied on people like
Monbiot to believe it. It made the right judgement. Rodriguez is on
tour in the UK but no national newspaper will speak to him.
Nonetheless it's coming apart. It would come apart faster if pundits
did research, news editors would admit they have been duped, and
corporate proprietors dared to defy pressures from government and
advertisers. Good people have done nothing and evil has prospered.
How ironic that Monbiot does not understand that.

What could be Monbiot's motive for denouncing so much of the movement
as a "virus" at a time when turkeys are being slaughtered? We can
only hope that this terminology was inadvertent and not a nasty
little bit of psychological warfare. We can only hope that the CIA
has quietly whispered to him that the nine eleven truth movement is
full of Nazis, or that he feels guilty for failing to investigate the
matter properly, or there is some internal power struggle going on at
the Guardian. Perhaps this is a turf war for the allegiance of
supporters of the sort that has always wrecked the left.

But there is a nightmare scenario. Perhaps Monbiot like his colleague
on the Observer Nick Cohen, is on the ugly neocon road from
trotskyism to the new version of fascism which makes the holocaust
into a religion and deduces that anything is justified, including
near genocide in Iraq, in the cause of "defending Israel".
Anti-semitic? Not at all, Israel is shorthand for America's oil and
the settlers' stolen land on the West Bank. Among the first victims
of the new fascists are, like the old fascists, ordinary jewish
people outside the empire's politically correct elite of sneering
overpaid pundits, multi ethnic racketeers and old style Pentagon nazis.

With a false flag terrorist attack on the US on the cards and another
wave of mass murder planned for Iran, the timing of Monbiot's
diatribe against "conspiracists" ie people who are trying to do
something to stop the empire, could hardly be more disturbing. Let's
hope he's just a sloppy researcher who has made a fool of himself.

Ian Henshall

upcoming book 911 The New Evidence
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This from Martin Deane
http://www.greenparty.org.uk/individual/229

My 9/11 information is based on my own studies in 2004. For 3 years I believed the US government view while reading most stuff that I came across on 9/11.

In 2004 I clocked up 100s of hours and now know the material well. But that's a far cry from saying I know exactly what happened though and that goes for other researchers and the film-makers too.

The Loose Change film Monbiot describes emotionally as a "virus" and as "nonsense" quite simply isn't. It is a remarkable compendium of the state of play of independent investigators into 9/11 delivered in an attractive format by a few young NY film-makers. If you've watched it, or part of it, then feel free to challenge me further on any details. Some will have a better provenance than others depending on the reliability of the evidence involved. A film, any film, isn't the last word. But neither was the 9/11 Commission report which did claim to have laid all "conspiracies theories" to rest and turns out to have addressed none of them.

I have recommended Loose Change as an introduction to the 'other side' for people who have not done their own research. I've watched it a number of times, and - more importantly - being familiar with the HISTORY ('history' rather than conspiracy because there is more to back it up than the US government story!) am content to recommend it to others for that reason.

Now, it's not the final story. There is plenty more to come out and I hope it does. What you can rest assured of is that there is no way the Bush mob is telling us the truth of the day, and certainly not their 600-page report (which I've also read in its entirety).

There are more lies about 9/11 than there have been about the Iraq war!

They WILL lie - and kill - to get wars. A simple example Monbiot does not address: do you know that about 9 of the 19 men blamed for 9/11 are still alive? That's the fact that got me started, so I investigated that first, and found it to be the case. Do you know that all 4 of those flights SHOULD have been intercepeted by jet fighters (as 67 flights in the previous year had) but not one was. That was the one that got Michael Meacher,MP started.

The collapses of the towers struck me as incredible on the day. I thought 'My God, now they (Bush, etc) can do anything they want (on the back of it)' The collapses got Prof Steven Jones (Physics,Utah) started and he describes a variety of evidence that points, he concludes, to the widespread use of thermite/thermate throughout the buildings. Including WTC-7 which people may not have heard about and the details Monbiot avoids.

It remains highly controversial - for many who rely on the mass media - as anyone thinking otherwise is labelled a "conspiracy theorist" beofre they draw a second breath. But what should you do when the actual history contradicts the government? Ditch the history? Come on, that's how totalitarian states work. We have to respect the history, the facts, even the uncomfortable ones. Not least because we live in deliberately uncomfortable times.

Because of this discomfort, the meeting with William Rodriguez next week I am organising in a personal capacity and not under a Green Party banner nor a Stop the War one. Monbiot's argument is that 9/11 history distracts people from being antiwar, say, or other major challenges. But it hasn't distracted me. I know they are going after Iran. We know how ruthless they will be. At the last conference however, the Green Party did vote in majority to support the American GP in its call to reopen an independent 9/11 investigation. But being an emergency motion it was a couple of votes short of the required 67% in this case.

A New York poll in 2004 split 50-50 between those who believed Bush and 'those infected by Monbiot's virus' who suspected the government had a hand in it. The "infection" will only have spread since.

An open mind is a really important thing in history. Otherwise all we know is received history, that written by rulers and kings, those in power, and the media who mediate it. It took about 500 years for the conquests of Columbus and Pizzarro, etc, to be seen as anything other than good. It took 200 years (depending on where we start) for slavery to be seen as bad. It took 12 years for most Germans to realise Hitler was a monster. So what's 5 years for an event - at least used by Bush - to shape American policy in such vicious and self-serving directions?

We have a duty to the world to look more closely than the highly controlled 9/11 commission which hid half the evidence given to it anyway.

These are the sorts of things Willie will be talking about and I hope Monbiot's poor performance in this challenging arena doesnt put you off.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

For a detailed reply to him see - Peter Meyer

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/reply-to-monbiot.htm

Note of caution regarding serendipity / Peter Meyer. His opinions are controversial within the movement
http://911review.com/denial/holocaust.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groups_and_individuals_challenging_the_of ficial_account_of_9/11#Peter_Meyer

Further comments here

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,2007519,00.html
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George Monbiot's article doesn't really require any further comment - its lack of merit speaks for itself. But that it has elicited over 600 comments in the two days since its publication is surely noteworthy. I started to read them but soon realised what a Sisyphusian task it would be. No article (at least none which is currently available) by George Monbiot received even half this number of comments.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that all four letters published in the Guardian today are anti-Monbiot. Maybe they have none in support...?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comment near to the bottom of the page. This person sides with the movement but remains quite objective and balanced:

Quote:
Reading through these comments is like a fun game of 'spot-the-fallacy'; arguments from ignorance, incredulity, ad hominem attacks all over the place, new and ever inventive ways of twisting Occam's Razor to 'prove' things it really has no business anywhere near. Saddening, really. What's perhaps more saddening is that the supporters of the official story come off sounding far more deluded than the truthers - sorry to have to tell you, folks, but your personal incredulity counts for jack sh*t. Arguments like 'If it was an inside job, how did they get the bombs in, eh? You can't tell me, therefore all your previous claims are moot.' only serve to illuminate your intellectual dishonesty.

The argument from the opposite side - 'what's more likely, a dude in a cave in Afghanistan, or a massive, powerful organisation that has been known to do these sorts of things before?' - also counts for nowt. You, I, nor anybody alive or having lived is qualified to make a personal stab at probability and hold it up as empirical truth. Sorry about that.

The reason I ultimately side myself with the truthers, aside from the juvenile 'you're wrong, and also an idiot' position adopted by the majority of their opposition, is that they want to find the truth - wild speculation aside, there are very pressing questions surrounding the events of that day, and no answers to these questions have been forthcoming. Yes, many claims from the truth movement have been thoroughly debunked and yes, many that remain in circulation are extremely dubious, but at the end of the day all they (we?) want is a Proper Investigation, one done in public where we can all see the data the conclusions are drawn from, instead of relying on NIST and their black-box model which just says 'Yeah, we were right. Nothing to see here'.

Now and again, in all the invective from the incredulous anti-truthers (see what I did there? Intellectual dishonesty ftw), I spot comparisons to the tired old Creationism vs Evolution argument, and indeed there is a comparison to be drawn - but I'd draw it the other way around. Doubts about 9/11 are drawn from what little scraps of evidence we the public are allowed access to (they then balloon into fun, but ultimately pointless, speculative narratives, but that's beside the point). Doubts about the doubts about 9/11 are drawn from special pleading (laws of physics be damned, this is different), appeals to authority (Govt knows best) and arguments from personal conviction (I can't believe it, hence it is not true). Now which side more closely resembles the Creationist argument?

Ultimately, the supporters of the Official Conspiracy Theory constitute the inertia of conventionalism that has slowed the progress of civilization since it all kicked off. Unable to embrace even the possibility that they've had it wrong for so long, the evidence no longer matters. Self-preservation kicks in, the insults come out and it all degenerates into the sort of inane merry-go-round we can see here. These are the sorts of people that ridiculed the likes of Gallileo and Darwin for daring to come forward with ideas which nobody at the time wanted to hear.

ps: Having followed some of what Moby's written over the past few years, I'd like to think this hit piece is actually a cunningly subversive attempt to stimulate debate without committing professional suicide by (gasp!) admitting that there may be some very startling realities swilling around at the bottom of the Truth Movement's big barrel of wild claims.

What did it for me was the last para - Moby's claim that the 'only possible explanation' for why the US Government doesn't go around capping everyone who accuses them of complicity is that these claims are pure fantasy: which is the sort of facile nonsense that I wouldn't expect him to be capable of. Ergo, he's having us all on. And it's worked, too. Sort of. Smart chap, eh?
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