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Report/Minutes of Falkirk Get-together
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Keith Mothersson
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:55 am    Post subject: Report/Minutes of Falkirk Get-together Reply with quote

Greetings, Friends for 911 Truth in Scotland,

Following are the Minutes-cum-report of our very interesting Falkirk gathering, which we hope to repeat twice a year - please put Nov 8th in your diaries for the next one!

If there are mistakes in what we talked about and what we think about up here in Scotland I am sure that other [url]Scots/scottish residents [/url]can keep us right = Please will certain people stop butting in, we don't need your views, any more than you would need our views concerning the bristol or London groups. Is that clear enough, I wonder? or will we have to tell them to **** off and raise this invasion strategy at the British and Irish et-together in July? Hopefully mutual tolerance will prevail.

Comments welcome,
Best wishes, Keith Mothersson

Report and Minutes (kind of) of the Meeting of 911 Truth Scotland – Falkirk Christian Centre – May 10th 2008

Present: Richard Reid Ritchie (Stirling) , Barbara Maver (Edinburgh), Keith Mothersson (Perth) (minutes and very loose chairing!), Rory Winter (down from Banffs.), Paul Carline (Near Edinburgh) , Alan Govan, Charlotte Keeley (Glasgow)– and Gerry Moran and children from Paisley for a good part of the afternoon. Apologies from Mo in Edinburgh; also retrospectively from Tony Lennon (Motherwell)who would liked to have come but his mail arrived much too late.

Getting to know each other: Sharing about our relationship to ‘911’, what it originally meant to us and subsequently. Some like Barbara had disbelieved the official story at the time, others of us took longer, indeed we recognised that 911 truth was an unfolding process …. Being in a cognitive minority was often stressful, especially if we found unexpected strains developing with family and friends we had previously assumed we were on the same wavelength with and took things too personally. But we had found that meeting and working with others who were awake to 911 has helped to make us feel less isolated. Yet it could also pose new psychological challenges, as it opened us out (911 as a portal) to a sense of all the other scandals being hidden and long term control agendas (mention of ‘Conjuring Hitler’, by GG Preparata). At first some of us believed that if we duplicated enough free dvds, everyone else would do likewise and by the power of squares, soon the official story would come down. But it seems that a lot of superficially turned on people had a hobby-entertainment-novelty attitude to 911 truth, and others who maybe already suspected 911 felt that (as usual) there was nothing/little ‘ordinary people’ could do as ‘They’ were too powerful.

So now we were in it for the long haul, and we needed to link our concerns in with related concerns e.g. STW, SACC, MWH, implications of Downing St memo concerning fixing of intel about Saddam’s WMD, Energy policy, etc. We also need deal with the spiritual, psychological and cultural dimensions of the problem we encounter, e.g. the idea that it is the height of intellectual sophistication to rubbish ‘conspiracy theories’ – which gives perfect ‘plausible deniability’ cover for State and corporate wrong-doing. It can be depressing to realize how much fear people experience to stop them from opening their eyes, and also how the elite have long realized that ‘the whole aim of practical politics is to control people through an endless series of hobgoblins …’ (HL Mencken) – and subtle kinds of mind control, not just the physical threat of WW1 majors with pistols patrolling behind the troops to shoot those who didn’t go over the top when a whistle was blown.

We also recognized that 911 couldn’t work to function as a portal to a new level of awareness for society as a whole unless first we focused well enough on that specific False-flag event to break the myth in the eyes of public opinion/media, etc. Then other big questions would naturally flow like why the Hell have the media been telling us lies for x years about this?

911 Truth movement at a time of change: As the picture 911 now seems to be part and parcel of got bigger and bigger there was a danger of pitching things to ‘newcomers’ in such a way as to appear crazy to them; and also opinions on subsidiary issues are bound to diverge, e.g. man-made role in global warming, anti-EU-Lisbon versus democratizing Europe. So we needed each to practice the spiritual disciplines of pursuing truth with an unbiased mind, and also being courteous to those with whom we disagree. At some level people were hooked into lies from the media, and had been collectively ‘initiated’ or traumatized by 911 (and JFK ritual sacrifice before that). Yet also at some level people were subconsciously aware of the truth that a lot of problems were building up, and are we not collectively dreaming the dream of freedom together? So how does our 911 truth relate to this part of people’s psyche?

It was argued that one corollary is to not be too scared about being accused of ‘bringing weird stuff’ into 911 truth movement (such as No planes/video fakery and Directed energy weapons) when it can be done skillfully and appositely, because the ‘weird stuff’ has already been introduced by the Powers that Be (together with strong admonitions not to see it, nor talk about it). Another example of subliminal messages (and the information we can derive from the disinfo efforts of the Powers that be (PTB) concerns the two ‘landing wheels’ from (the wrong kind of) jetliners ‘found’/planted near the WTC in absurdly unlikely locations (considering where ‘the planes’ are supposed to have struck) under scaffolding, and in both cases Paul had noticed that they just happen to have lying next to them a Roman ‘fasces’ type of thin stone column [the photos are included in the Morgan Reynolds/Rick Rajter article at: http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=exploding_the_airli ner_crash_myth. ] As if the PTB are threatening Fascism in plain sight. A more hopeful angle is that as Big Oil, the military and the futures hoarding derivatives traders drive the price of Oil ever higher, DEW could take us towards an understanding of free energy technologies, cars running on water, the suppression of Tesla’s amazing work, etc and point to a sense of the abundance of life/energy/wealth – not the politically engineered scarcity of the Peak Oil hoaxers ….??? – To envison that the whole universe – every T-spoon full of air or water – contains immense energy we could tap into, is truly a huge shift from scarcity consciousness to spiritual plenty. [KM adds - see for example the recent essay on Andrew Johnson’s website: The 9/11 Truth Movement, Free Energy Suppression and the Global Elite’s Agenda http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&tas k=view&id=182&Itemid=60 ]

Make Wars History: Paul outlined his involvement with MWH, supported by Rory, Richard and Barbara. See the website www.makewarshistory.org.uk which focuses on the criminality of war (even when purportedly ‘authorised’ by the Security Council contrary to Art 41 of the UN Charter) and on the blatant and busted conspiracies which took US/UK troops into Iraq. The International Criminal Court Act gave us a much better handle now for getting these international crimes treated as the domestic murders etc that they also were/are. He had organized a briefing for MSPs at Holyrood and was hoping that some Bill Alexander and a few other SNP MPs would be helping to press Scottish Police Constables into taking our referrals of crime seriously, not pass the buck back and forth with MPs. We are all enjoined to report crime. Barbara Maver is involved in a letter writing campaign. 0131 449 2455. The real issue is whether the police are being so politicized as agents of the State/current government that they have lost sight of their paramount duty as public servants – NB Scottish Police Service Code of Ethical Practice: They ‘will act fairly and impartially, without prejudice and solely in terms of the public interest.’ Excellent printed info from Paul and dvd available from Rory: 01261 833776.

Scottish Politics and the War on Terror: The media had carried several terror scares pointing to Scotland?: Paul outlined his suspicion concerning the ‘not if but when’ school of terrorism and security ‘expertise’ – which could be laying the foundation for another false-flag operation – e.g. in the Edinburgh festival or a big football stadium, etc. A very lucrative Securicrat industry (ACPO a private company), which makes people ill with worry and inflames suspicions against Muslims especially. It is due to convene in Glasgow on June 20th – see this from Scotland Against Criminalising Communities:

SACC DOES NOT endorse or recommend this event, which appears to be a propaganda event to promote the government's divisive counter-terrorism strategy.

One-day Conference: "This event provides a tremendous opportunity to hear from some of Britain’s leading players and experts in preventing and countering terrorism, as well as those working in emergency planning. Delegates will also be able, throughout the day, to put questions to and have discussion with the speakers. The conference will bring together experts and practitioners from a myriad of public, private and community bodies, including the UK and Scottish Governments, the police, fire and rescue, the emergency planning community, local authorities, NHS bodies, colleges, universities, academics, and businesses working on resilience issues"
Registration fees range from £116.33 to £292.58 More info from Holyrood Conferences

Keith would be interested to hear if anyone else feels like picketing this Islamophobic Scare-Fest – possible joint action with SACC ? [who that evening are holding a talk 6-7.00 pm at St John’s in Edinburgh, with Former Guantánamo prisoner Moazzam Begg and lawyer Aamer Anwar.]

Co-ordinated Action/Leaflet tools: Paul would also like to hear from people interested in making co-ordinated protests at BBC offices around the UK all on the same day – shaming the BBC to answer why have they not changed their Science Correspondent’s nonsense about the Towers being melted by aircraft fuel, how come the advance reporting of the collapse of WTC7? , etc He would prepare a punchy leaflet. 01968 661448.

Keith volunteered to draft and circulate one or more leaflets aimed at school pupils students, Physics depts and teaching unions at schools and universities, the teaching unions, etc, calling for those who know about Physics to take responsibility for suppressing the mockery of physics which the official story represents – not just the top floors ‘falling through’ 109 floors at the speed of air resistance – and the more powderisation happened the less energy for speedily breaking huge bolts evenly all around , but also the absurdity of claiming that soft aluminium planes could pierce steel framed buildings without losing any bits outside because they had such momentum: but so far as physics is concerned the steel framed building is getting closer to the plane at the same speed! Anyone care to work with me on the first drafts? Anyway, if we developed a good set of resources here, pus press release, we could consider a co-ordinated approach to e.g. Univ Physics Depts or a school in each city.

Inter-Faith Initiative: with the support of other members of 911 Truth Scotland Keith was developing an alliance of people of different religious faiths, All Faiths for 911 Truth, which had produced a smart little booklet with our Declaration and Appeal, available on request from Keith at 2b Darnhall Cres, Perth PH2 0HH 01738 783677. They would be hosting a stall at the Meadows Festival, June 7/8th at which leaflets, great dvds, T-shirts and other material could also be displayed. Fairly general approval though Gerry thought religion was inherently anti-truth. Contact Paul or Keith if you would like to help for part or all of either day, and Paul concerning his stock of wares.

Webpresence: The nineeleven website had been behaving erratically, e.g. banning Rory Winter for questioning sacred shibboleths concerning the European project and its non-proven links to Common Purpose; also a double standard about what they think are ‘controversial theories’ to be banished to a less well-advertised section of the website (but controversial theories about Thermite destroying the WTC and Arab hijackers on planes that should have been intercepted – these are apparently kosher). Most recently we had ourselves been lectured and ridiculed by some for even suggesting that during our Scottish day-gathering we might look at a forbidden dvd during the lunch break (Morgan Reynolds: What Planes?). We agreed that this interference by certain arrogant young men from London was completely unacceptable, and Paul undertook to communicate that from us all. People were encouraged to continue using the Scottish section at least for the time being, but in due course we might either switch to the West Yorkshire alternative http://www.wytruth.org.uk/index.html , or ideally we could create our own if the right people with the skills and with the enthusiasm came together (hint, hint). One attractively designed undeveloped template site exists already at www.edinburghtruth.org – which currently only carries one page about the Truth Fest day at Forest Café on Nov 11 2007.

Keith had bought a URL www.ringoftruth.org.uk for a couple of years, and intended to see a collective or ‘ring’ of compatible domains supporting each other but with different roles and styles and constituencies, but all practicing a commitment to truth (decent referencing, reliable data) and to open-mindedness and civility in discussion – with different individuals or small teams responsible both for posting articles and links in attractive displays and also for moderating the discussion forums on each sub-domain. He confessed he found technology difficult, so quite apart from other overwork issues he might take a while to get this together, but was keen to co-operate with whoever came forward to start subdomains on 911, False-Flag Terrorism (on which Paul is preparing a big Powerpoint presentation, incidentally), and maybe State Crimes, Money Scam, Tabooed Knowledge, Democratic Europe and/or Scotland Awakes or some such titles could encapsulate other nodes of the ‘ring’, other sub-domains. (What point Scotland becoming formally independent if we still buy into the mythology and taboos of the Anglo-American state, ‘the City’ moving up to Edinburgh, etc).

Whatever the discussion forums we agreed with Rory that we believed that they should be independent of political parties, and that there should be civility between people at different ends of an argument (as he and Justin had achieved concerning Europe), who could in a way co-operate to ensure that each person’s points were fairly laid out and fairly responded to, thus helping people understand more deeply – not just out to win the argument by any means, sneering, ridicule, mis-representation, ignoring of the strong points in the other person’s reply, diversion, etc which has too often passed for debate in political circles generally.

Rory undertook to develop a set of guidelines (parameters of acceptable behaviour) for posters on Scottish 911 forum(s), and also strategies moderators should/could use or would be using to allow free speech and yet also make clear repugnance by red-lining and roundly denouncing material which violates these parameters, or banning altogether. Gerry worried we were being too ambitious, being already stretched. Volunteers needed so that things aren’t always left to the usual suspects.

Exploring possibility of e-conferencing: Rory would explore options here and report back, so that members who lived at a distance could in principle participate in real time.

Music to our Ears: Though busy with exams until the end of May, Sharon Matheson [mathesons23@hotmail.com 07917 868319 ] had experience of organising musical events and was volunteering to help organize music as part of 911 truth events and/or fundraisers especially in the West Coast. Alan Govan and Paul Carline, who also had experience in the music world, volunteered to liase with Sharon and explore options. Also – maybe some sympathetic bands might agree to stalls at their gigs??

Scottish Celebrities: Sharon had also suggested trying to develop a Scottish list of supporters of 911 Truth/Inquiry – and Barbara would contact her about working on this. [NB in Ireland Jim Corrs of The Corrs has just come out saying 911 was an inside job: KM]

Next meeting: In about 6 months, we agreed – should I book the same (excellent) venue? For Sat, Nov 8th? Please mark it provisionally in your diaries.


Things we didn’t get around to discussing:

Anyone like to make a banner for us, or sponsor one?

Edinburgh Festival and Edinburgh Mela (Sept 1st)

911Truth movement (Britain and Ireland): There is to be a meeting at the beginning of July in Bristol. It will probably see the launch of the new ‘cleaned up’ (self-censored?) respectable Inquiry movement/website; and maybe also two new or revamped Truth discussion forums. Plus news of European 911 truth movement – see their website at http://911truth.eu/en/ - unfortunately both their Scottish links are defunct, as are both of Kenny McGuire’s Glasgow websites – in this respect we have gone backwards. Hopefully Alan and Charlotte may be able to work with Gerry Moran and pull something together by way of a Glasgow group? Please contact them if you would like to be involved. Good luck all! Alan Govan and Charlotte Keeley: albino_govan [at]gmail.com Gerry Moran: 0141 887 0483 gadmoran@hotmail.com

Follow developments on the Nineeleven website, or the West Yorkshire forum expanded to incorporate the old nineeleven material. We should send a representative: volunteer, please? (some financial help with expenses could be forthcoming if it makes the difference).

Donations welcome to Paul Carline Stable Cott, Newhall, Carlops, Midlothian, EH26 9LY or myself: Keith Forrester-Paton (official name!) 2b Darnhall Cres, Perth PH2 0HH 01738 783677

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crikey, No planes and beam weaponry, there must be a lot of flouride in the water up in Scotland. I suggest crush up some chalk leave it in the water overnight and then filter it, this should remove the majority of the flouride and your critical thinking abilities should start to resurface after a few weeks Wink

Can anyone please explain to me how creating a leaflet about this nonsense to give out at schools is going to help??? And you wonder why people don't take us seriously enough???????

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: The 9/11 Mis/Disinfo Movement Reply with quote

andyb wrote:
Can anyone please explain to me how creating a leaflet about this nonsense to give out at schools is going to help??? And you wonder why people don't take us seriously enough???????


I expect that this question will be dismissed as "interference by certain arrogant young men from London" Rolling Eyes

It's stuff like the following which makes it clear that if 9/11 truth gets anywhere in the UK it'll be dispite the work of what passes for the "9/11 Truth Movement"... Evil or Very Mad

keith Mothersson wrote:
It was argued that one corollary is to not be too scared about being accused of ‘bringing weird stuff’ into 911 truth movement (such as No planes/video fakery and Directed energy weapons) when it can be done skillfully and appositely... DEW could take us towards an understanding of free energy technologies, cars running on water

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: If the cap fits, wear it Reply with quote

Quote:
I expect that this question will be dismissed as "interference by certain arrogant young men from London"


If the cap fits ....

The 'weird stuff' is already in 9/11 bigttime, lodged in people's subconscious and not allowed to be talked about ....

When appropriate [NOT with everyone or all the time NB] we find that talking about the weirdness of planes melting into building like butter cutting through a knife with no bits falling off finds a good response, a breath of relief. [NB at the interface the law of conservation of momentum and energy means that the steel/conctrete building is coming toward the plane and fluid at the same speed as vice versa, so one can't use momentum as a reason for no bits falling off and complete engulfment, etc]

Likewise lots of people say they always felt there was something weird about the buildings 'collapses', and when they realise that they couldn't have 'fallen' through 109 steel and concrete floors evenly all around (path of max resistance) at the speed a grand piano would have fallen off the roof through a vacuum, then they realise that it isn't them which is weird, but it is is the whole scenario which needs investigating with an open mind.

Try it, good people.

Another important realisation is that they already know that stuff takes longer to fall through stuff than through air, and even more than through a vacuum. So they can be encouraged to reown their moral authority, take their own capavcity for important judgments back from 'the Experts' who feed us lies - and false images also.

Why Andy Baker and Chris C feel the need to police our Scottish website for political correctness I can't think. Assuming, as I do, that they are not spooks, it does seem to me as if they have been spooked into massive fear of looking at big important parts of the truth about 9/11, which is such a pity because in my experience, they are just as campaign/outreach friendly as any other [url]true[/url] bits .

Of course the outreach friendliest way to go is to accept as much of the official story as possible - hijackers and all, but that doesn't count.

I do however find that setting out the stages of my 9/11 truth realisation - walking a step along as I get to each point - allows me to touch base with people e.g. around the hijacker story and then controlled demolition Jones style before explaining how I came to question these approaches, and found myself getting into the weird stuff, which actually turns out to be getting the weird stuff (psyop) out of our heads.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been various forms of dogma at work.

We seem to be entering a new, co-ordinated phase of dogmatic policing.

The orthodoxies continue to be reinforced upon the ice sheet of risking "credibility".

As fallacies go, this takes some beating.

As if the previous 7 years denied the recent orthodoxy enforcers, a voice.

Maybe it's the mushrooms?

Eh Andy?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: The 9/11 Mis/Disinfo Movement Reply with quote

keith Mothersson wrote:
Why Andy Baker and Chris C feel the need to police our Scottish website for political correctness I can't think. Assuming, as I do, that they are not spooks, it does seem to me as if they have been spooked into massive fear of looking at big important parts of the truth about 9/11, which is such a pity because in my experience, they are just as campaign/outreach friendly as any other [url]true[/url] bits .



Or perhaps they recognise disinformation and care about your proliferation of it?

Campaign/outreach friendly? Completely the opposite. If 'no planes' theories can be mightily debunked* from within the 9/11 Truth Movement why on earth use them as campaigning tool? Surely that would be counterproductive Keith... ?

mightily debunked*

from http://911disinformation.com

Videos

Plane Photos

Plane Parts

Eyewitnesses

Eyewitnesses (1st Hand)

Eyewitnesses (2nd Hand)

Earwitnesses

Plane Debris Eyewitnesses

Miscellaneous Eyewitnesses


see also:

from http://georgewashington.blogspot.com

No Planes Theory: R.I.P.

The Fatal Flaw in the No Plane Theory

and:

from http://arabesque911.blogspot.com

9/11 Disinformation and Misinformation: Definitions and Examples

September Clues, TV Fakery: Debunked

The 9/11 Plane Theories and the "Conspiracy Theory Method"

and:

from http://journalof911studies.com

A Critical Review of WTC 'No Plane' Theories by Eric Salter

Interpreting the Boeing-767 Deceleration During Impact with the WTC Tower: Center of Mass Versus Tail-end Motion, and Instantaneous Versus Average Velocity by Dr Greg Jenkins

and finally:

Debunking "September Clues" by Nick Irving

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith, are you in any way qualified in physics? I really could not care less if you thought I was a spook or not, actions speak louder than words IMO. Now us arrogant londoners have committed a lot of our time to this and spreading nonsense is counter productive to those efforts. Why not just stick to builidng 7, put options, able danger, pre warnings, $100000 wire transfer, NORAD stand down, war games, sibel edmonds etc , etc/ why the need for fairy tales??????????? irrespective we are on the same side and I love ya X
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Stick to what solid planks? Reply with quote

I love ya too, Andy, but I don't believe a truth movement can just subsist on internal contradictions in the official theory.

if you believe in Norad stand-down and Able danger and pre-warnings, wargames, etc, etc you evidently still believe that Muslims/Al-Q struck first, which IMO still keeps the core of the 911 myth intact and serviceable for purposes of invasion/occupation, albeit some traitors let the bad guys in the gate ....

if on the other hand you don't believe these things were substantive happenings, but accompanying flack or onion layers to confuse us, like the mailing of the $100,000 to the patsy team - you have a grave responsibility to explain to people the patsy theory.

Perhaps you are agnostic about which things are substantive and which are extra layers of confusionism to distract from the real story, but in that case you must say so very clearly.

Most 'internal contradictions' approaches for why we need an Indpencdent International Inquiry basically leave people more or less believing things which I think are as untrue as you may feel Woods/Reynolds/videofakery are.

We shouldn't believe things for being juicy, having a clear shape, giving a dramatic explanation, etc - but if things 'we' think (I do anyway) are true have these characteristics, then people will be a lot more energized and interested in finding out what really happened than if you stay with internal contradictions and call for others, some distant species of 'Them'?, to do the inquiring - yawn.

And what guarantee that such an Inquiry 'won't have time' to investigate the new horizons DATA aka 'speculative theories' or weird stuff, so will just adjust its brief to say the official story is gravely flawed and we need another Inquiry ....

Which would leave our society and 'Truth Movement' stuck with quietly accepting the Physics Lysenkoism which allows 110 story South Tower to (ahem) 'fall' through itself at 9 secs speed (NIST=solid plank NB) - the speed that a comparably high large object would fall through the air at sea level, but through a vacuum.

Either the laws of physics were temporarily nobbled by those wicked Muslims, or the Towers didn't fall. (No, I am not a physicist, but I do know that stuff takes longer to fall through stuff than through air, have done since age 6, I think. I am surprised that so many people seem prepared to be talked out of this certainty - or to ignore this anomaly which is central to the cause of death of 2,700 folk.)

F***ing weird, Andy, but the weirdness is IN THERE in the original mix, not arbitrarily imported by me or Paul Carline, etc. So what makes you and your vigilant colleagues think that we deviant Scots should just stick to the 'obvious solid planks' which turn out to include or ignore such bang-to-rights naked weirdness?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: The 9/11 Mis/Disinfo Movement Reply with quote

gareth wrote:
keith Mothersson wrote:
Why Andy Baker and Chris C feel the need to police our Scottish website for political correctness I can't think. Assuming, as I do, that they are not spooks, it does seem to me as if they have been spooked into massive fear of looking at big important parts of the truth about 9/11, which is such a pity because in my experience, they are just as campaign/outreach friendly as any other [url]true[/url] bits .



Or perhaps they recognise disinformation and care about your proliferation of it?

Campaign/outreach friendly? Completely the opposite. If 'no planes' theories can be mightily debunked* from within the 9/11 Truth Movement why on earth use them as campaigning tool? Surely that would be counterproductive Keith... ?

mightily debunked*

from http://911disinformation.com

Videos

Plane Photos

Plane Parts

Eyewitnesses

Eyewitnesses (1st Hand)

Eyewitnesses (2nd Hand)

Earwitnesses

Plane Debris Eyewitnesses

Miscellaneous Eyewitnesses


see also:

from http://georgewashington.blogspot.com

No Planes Theory: R.I.P.

The Fatal Flaw in the No Plane Theory

and:

from http://arabesque911.blogspot.com

9/11 Disinformation and Misinformation: Definitions and Examples

September Clues, TV Fakery: Debunked

The 9/11 Plane Theories and the "Conspiracy Theory Method"

and:

from http://journalof911studies.com

A Critical Review of WTC 'No Plane' Theories by Eric Salter

Interpreting the Boeing-767 Deceleration During Impact with the WTC Tower: Center of Mass Versus Tail-end Motion, and Instantaneous Versus Average Velocity by Dr Greg Jenkins

and finally:

Debunking "September Clues" by Nick Irving


I guess you didn't see the first time so i'll ask again... in light of the considerable counter-evidence if 'no planes' theories can be mightily debunked from within the 9/11 Truth Movement why on earth use them as campaigning tool? Surely that would be counterproductive Keith... ?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I love ya too, Andy, but I don't believe a truth movement can just subsist on internal contradictions in the official theory.



But that is the truth of the matter Keith, you obviously prefer being in the speculation movement. Anyway, i don't see myself as part of a 'truth' movement but as a campaigner to get a new investigation into 9/11. We can then take things from there. focus innit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Draw on the power of story to drive out Myth Reply with quote

Quote:
But that is the truth of the matter Keith, you obviously prefer being in the speculation movement.


The demand for an investigation has zero emeotional-popular-political oomph about it, unless it gets connected in people's minds with various sense-makings and stories, with hopefully some of them being held lightly or provisionally as hypotheses, while other take the status of logical conclusions (assuming the evidence isn't planted).

The whole 911 event was planned as a huge dramatic iconic Psyop and secular Myth, the core of a globally compulsory US-Christian-Zionist Security Cult. The drama/story is built in and you don't drive it out by dickering about with mere 'internal contradictions' which most people who hear you don't even realise we don't necessarily believe either, just that they contradict Cheney, say - though to be truthful there is no more reason to believe Norman Lockheed Martin Mineta about watching 'planes' = dots on a screen 'coming closer' in a White House bunker than to believe Cheney.

As sson as people realise that they are being lied to, immediately we start to want to know what really happened. There is nothing wrong with this vital human response, only if we can't hold hypotheses with a degree of provionality, putting some things in mental brackets or marking them with e.g. a thirty percent probability, pending further investigation/revelations.

That is a vital adjunct and inherent part of scientific enquiry and arriving at deeper truth(s). So there is NOTHING WRONG with speculation consciously entertained and disciplined by known facts or probable facts - and the more we model this in our truth-exploration and truth-telling, the better we help people to grow up out of Tabloid Certaintism and kneejerk contempt memes (the 'speculative' label is really from the same stable as 'conspiracy theorist', isn't it, Andy?).

And the best of it is that we can develop our 9/11 story as a reverse-iconic event - one which helps everyone realise the depths of lying the PTB are capable of, the power of absurd normalising 'frames' unless we retain our native intelligence [stuff falls slower through stuff than through non-stuff] are can remain alert to what they are up to.

In any case I am not sure what is so inappropriately speculative about the otherwise inexplicable factual evidence Judy Wood has drawn our attention to - not just earth lorries dumping earth every week - still - and missing door handles, etc but including the latest stuff concerning what was happening with Alaska/Haarp/Hurricane Erin on 9/11. She is at least looking in the right direction, and wanting any hypothesis to take account of the weird data, e.g. the cold dustcloud that engulfed people from a building supposedly 'falling' because of intense heat. By contrast to ignore these data because they don't fit some cherished hypothesis seems to me a much worse mistake than too much 'speculation'. One has to grapple with the full range of known facts, not with just a convenient subset of them.

OKay, let's say she has a ten percent chance of being right, that is better than a sub-zero = null possibility of having to believe in a top floor actually falling through 109 floors at speed a genuine 'falling object' would fall through a vacuum.

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume that Gareth's long list of URLs 'debunking No Plane Theory is conclusive - [actually the links I have looked at are pretty poor refutations, IMO, and often contain powerful counter-arguments as comments or showing up as anomalies in the testimony, like the person who first heard the plane crash then looked at the telly and saw it = time delay feed??!, which is what the video-fakery people have been saying!]. I also grant you that video-fakery seems like a big stretch for most newcomers to thinking about 911.

Won't either of you pleeeeease admit - go on, I dare you - the sky won't fall in -

a) that it is seriously weird the way e.g. the South Tower was destroyed ['fell'/went away] ?.....

b) that there isn't any doubt about the height/laws of physics of falling objects through vacuum and through air, nor the speed at which it happened (NIST says 9 secs)?

c) that neither the official story (98 secs time for pancaking according to Judy Wood) nor the Jones thermate/ite theory can begin to explain the UNDISPUTABLE and OBSERVABLE - nothing 'speculative' about it- FACT of 9 secs (and Jones admitted he couldn't explain the self-destruct - powderisation actually - of the huge 23 degrees-leaning block of topmost stories, contrary to law of conservation of momentum)?

d) that such heresies (it seems in your eyes?) might be massively intriguing and motivating to get folk 'hooked' on 911 truth investigation and campaigning, etc?;

e) and if 'the Authorities' and the MSM consistently lie and cover up and/or normalise the unnormalisable - about such a patent in-our-faces bang-to-rights thing as Floor 110 supposedly 'falling' through 109 floors at speed of vacuum resistance, then immediately the possibility must be strong that they could have lied (planted false witnesses etc) about LOTS of other things - and here I would then revert back to the NPT and video-fakery hypothesis, which IMO is a lot less 'speculative' than the Hijacked planes fable, which you seem happy to either run with or at least make nice with for 'practical purposes' of securing an Investigation - or am I wrong, Andy?.

If your Independent Investigation will seriously grapple with a) to c) above, then it will be worth having. If not, it won't.

And if you want to censor folk from drawing attention to the work of Judy Wood, what confidence can I have that any Investigation which results from such an Investigation Campaign movement is worth the having, and doesn't just 'reveal'/distract with another outer layer of the onion, which leaves Black Budget High-tech devilry and racist Hijacker lore in place?

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blackbear
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello andyb.......

have you one piece of evidence for hijackers...........?

how come the dancers knew the time of the show......
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gareth, AndyB and ChrisC - they STILL think Aluminium Wing struts can cut through steel girders.

You guys found out about the timing of hurricane Erin yet, and the magnetometer data?

Have a shufty....

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/erin/

Did you hear the guy on Ambrose Lane's show in Jan describing the Hutchison Effect study as "a revelation beyond revelations".

I have to say I was impressed with Gareth's list of links though! At least he took the trouble! Mainlyfrom 2 sources - Alex Floum (George Washnigton) who didn't disagree with me when I said to Black Technology was used on 9/11 and Arabesque (both people hiding behind anonymous blog names,).

Anyway Steve Jones now thinks Paint-On Thermite might've taken down the towers! Great!!

http://www.checktheevidence.com/audio/911/SEJones/Paint%20on%20Thermat e%20-%209-11%20Debate-Air%20America%20-%20R%20Greene%20-%20S%20Jones%2 008%20May%202008.mp3

This is really fantastic...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Johnson wrote:
Gareth, AndyB and ChrisC - they STILL think Aluminium Wing struts can cut through steel girders.


And you still think airliners have no kinetic energy and bounce off skyscrapers Andrew.

How very tiresome.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any plans for another one of these meets?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Next get-together Reply with quote

Hi IlleagalHunter:

Sat November 8th at the same venue, Falkirk Christian Centre in Glebe Street near the station (Falkirk Grahamstown).

Gather 10.00 for 10.30 start. Bring food to share. And 911 merchandise (dvds, T-shirts, etc) ideas, enthusiasm, commitment. skills. New energy, etc. Finish about 5.00.

Further details from me as and when: or phone 01738 783677 or e-mail keith[dot]mothersson[at]blueyonder[dot]co[dot]uk

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply to McTony - Momentum doesn't cure Plane impossibility Reply with quote

Dear Tony,

According to the laws of physics if two objects meet at (supposed) 540 mph it doesn't matter whether object A is travelling at 540 mph or object b or both at 270 mph or any combination of speeds, at the interface they are equally vulenerable if made of the same stuff. And if one object is made of soft stuff (skin of aluminium airplane is very thin - 'Do not stand'' signs on the wings, etc) and the other of hard stuff the softer object will ALWAYS come off worse, no matter which is moving - because at the nanosecond surface interface of the materials there is a meeting up at 530 mph.

Do you dispute this as accurate physics?

You can't draft Momentum in to help you out with the butter cutting through knife conundrum. (of course the heavy titanium engines might have smashed through a lot of steel, but this would have made for a different shape of 'entry' gash or gashes. Plus they should absolutely NOT have been 'burnt up' in the conflagration which vanished the entire Boeings. At more or less the same spot where office workers were soon to stand waving for help (since no one had told them about a plane).

Glad you are engaging in this discussion though, dear friend.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aw Keith. This is a lost cause here
The more you do it, the more loss this worthwhile forum will suffer
There are other places you are welcome to discuss this

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Airliners have lots of kinetic energy and do not bounce off skyscrapers. Smoke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
Airliners have lots of kinetic energy and do not bounce off skyscrapers. Smoke

Yes they should, Tony, imo, yes they should
That's simple imagination of how things happen and what they should look like
it doesn't require any physics degree or any mastery of the subject
Just a simple and uneducated perception of what things should look like, and this does not equate....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul wright wrote:
TonyGosling wrote:
Airliners have lots of kinetic energy and do not bounce off skyscrapers. Smoke

Yes they should, Tony, imo, yes they should
That's simple imagination of how things happen and what they should look like
it doesn't require any physics degree or any mastery of the subject.


Paul, this is the equivalent of expecting the Earth to be the fixed centre of the universe because obviously we palpably don't experience any sensation of movement. And obviously if the Earth was actually rotating on its axis we would all be thrown off.
I'm afraid that simple imagination has not been a valid method of evaluating anything whatsoever since the Enlightenment.

paul wright wrote:
Just a simple and uneducated perception of what things should look like, and this does not equate....


And who'd expect a simple small flake of paint to punch a hole in armoured glass? Yet at 17,000mph it does - due to the miniscule mass being multiplied by the kinetic energy to produce the force to do so when that paint flake impacts the Space Shuttle.

There is an ilk who use this technique of counter-intuitive appeals applied to events outside of anybody's experience to further their agenda. They know the math will frighten some so they don't bother.

Look at how Keith and Andrew struggle with their misinformed attempt to evaluate the event - being intuitively bamboozled by the asinine concept of 'hard' and 'soft' materials rather than the true relevant issues of mass and energy.

And so without having to back up nonsense with numbers, enlightenment through true evaluation of fact ain't on that junk "science" agenda promoted by some.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's 'O' level Physics, which no doubt the academy schools wil be extracting from the curriculum in future to give false flag spectaculars a better chance of succeeding.
chek wrote:
who'd expect a simple small flake of paint to punch a hole in armoured glass? Yet at 17,000mph it does - due to the miniscule mass being multiplied by the kinetic energy to produce the force to do so when that paint flake impacts the Space Shuttle.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
It's 'O' level Physics, which no doubt the academy schools wil be extracting from the curriculum in future to give false flag spectaculars a better chance of succeeding.
chek wrote:
who'd expect a simple small flake of paint to punch a hole in armoured glass? Yet at 17,000mph it does - due to the miniscule mass being multiplied by the kinetic energy to produce the force to do so when that paint flake impacts the Space Shuttle.

well yes - and how an object will behave in a collision depends on much more than what it is made out of. but don't forget that the npt/dew crowd are all philosophers - as in....

"I think I'm a researcher therefore I am"

"I think I'm a video expert therefore I am"

"I think I understand physics, dynamics and structural engineering therefore I do"

and so on....

sadly - they're only fooling themselves. Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
It's 'O' level Physics, which no doubt the academy schools wil be extracting from the curriculum in future to give false flag spectaculars a better chance of succeeding.


Andrew Johnson allegedly has a degree in physics - and his best bud Judy Wood is allegedly a professor of Mech Eng.
And yet they promote this hard/soft tosh?

Something is not right there....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chek wrote:
TonyGosling wrote:
It's 'O' level Physics, which no doubt the academy schools wil be extracting from the curriculum in future to give false flag spectaculars a better chance of succeeding.


Andrew Johnson allegedly has a degree in physics - and his best bud Judy Wood is allegedly a professor of Mech Eng.
And yet they promote this hard/soft tosh?

Something is not right there....


To be fair, he doesn't claim to have a degree in physics - he's the first to admit that he did a degree with a module in physics. I think something to do with computers. But he does occasionally like to give the impression of expertise. I remember him once chiding me that I had no understanding of quantum physics therefore could not properly digest no-planery/fakery. Odd then that many (note 'many' not 'all' before the inevitable) of the other adherents to the theory would clearly have trouble stringing together their shoe laces, let alone a coherent argument.

It amazes me that this debate continues. I respect and on an entertainment level, mightily enjoy the efforts of Chek, Dogsmilk, John White and co. debunking these theories with such veracity and humour, but isn't the time long past just to let them marginalise themselves? As far as I'm concerned we have won. There are no new claims coming, we've done out job.

They seem to be huddling and on the whole are not activists in any meaningful sense of the word, their only output seems to be forums and the occasion bout of preaching to the converted in a village hall somewhere.

Everyone knows where I stand on censorship - So long as it isn't being spoken in my name I'll defend free speech to the hilt however silly the sentiment spoken may be. But I have a proposal:

Whenever someone posts lunacy and nonsense on this forum, the response from all sane posters is uniform and it is this:

Rolling Eyes

That's it. Just -

Rolling Eyes

No repeating the same (very good) arguments against - we all know by now they aren't listening. So please, join the Rolling Eyes campaign, and express your rejection of this nonsense without giving it anymore of your precious time.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul wright wrote:
TonyGosling wrote:
Airliners have lots of kinetic energy and do not bounce off skyscrapers.

Yes they should, Tony, imo, yes they should
That's simple imagination of how things happen and what they should look like

it doesn't require any physics degree or any mastery of the subject
Just a simple and uneducated perception of what things should look like, and this does not equate....

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if a Rolling Eyes is really emphatic enough for some of the stuff these people come out with.

how about this? Wink


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
chek wrote:
TonyGosling wrote:
It's 'O' level Physics, which no doubt the academy schools wil be extracting from the curriculum in future to give false flag spectaculars a better chance of succeeding.


Andrew Johnson allegedly has a degree in physics - and his best bud Judy Wood is allegedly a professor of Mech Eng.
And yet they promote this hard/soft tosh?

Something is not right there....


To be fair, he doesn't claim to have a degree in physics - he's the first to admit that he did a degree with a module in physics.


Ah ok Stefan, thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps Andrew stopped on for just one more ciggy at teabreak and missed that module. In which case I probably shouldn't have bothered laying a little trap either - which I'm sure everybody spotted (pay attention at the back there!) - kinetic energy being the result rather than a factor in the ol' mass x energy equation.
Bwahaha hardry har har har *cough* etc.

Stefan wrote:
Odd then that many (note 'many' not 'all' before the inevitable) of the other adherents to the theory would clearly have trouble stringing together their shoe laces, let alone a coherent argument.


Although to be fair, I think even Stephan Hawking has difficulty with Supershoelace Theory Smile

Oh well, that's that sorted.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gruts wrote:
I'm not sure if a Rolling Eyes is really emphatic enough for some of the stuff these people come out with.

how about this? Wink



I like it!
What would be really good too would be if your meter could somehow be inserted into the thread's title bar after 'x' number of negative votes/comments.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gruts wrote:
I'm not sure if a Rolling Eyes is really emphatic enough for some of the stuff these people come out with.

how about this? Wink


I'm not sure I'm happy to be included with "these people". I find some of the no-planes and DEW-people a little obsessed, self-obsessed, evangelistic, zealous and so on. As cheks and gruts in particular appear to be so, in opposition here. There's a chaos area of non-crossable territory here, which ends up with pisstakes being thrown from either side
Same old conflict zone
I quite like the bullshitometer device idea.
Perhaps it could be applied to all posts on all threads with some kind of score mark up applied. It would provide an instant straw poll evaluation.
Good one.

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