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Putin Prepares For War
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conspiracy analyst
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russias Putin being called an expansionist state...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/123449

Sounds familiar?
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gruts
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG!!!!! I didn't realise that referring to russia as an expansionist state is now an anti-russian thoughtcrime! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

do you also have a minor tantrum when somebody says something vaguely unflattering about the USA, or is this yet another example of the double standards I was talking about? and perhaps karlos can tell us if Newsweek is part of his alleged zionist media conspiracy against russia - preferably with some evidence of course....

btw - if russia wasn't an expansionist state then how did it acquire all those non-russian territories that are now part of the russian federation?

chechnya for example.

please explain (preferably without the use of doublethink).

and here's another pertinent question for karlos, conspiracy analyst and the rest of the putin-bootlickers.

Do you agree that the september 1999 apartment bombings in Russia were a false flag attack that helped Putin's rise to power and were then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

....or do you support the official conspiracy theory?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gruts wrote:
OMG!!!!! I didn't realise that referring to russia as an expansionist state is now an anti-russian thoughtcrime! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

do you also have a minor tantrum when somebody says something vaguely unflattering about the USA, or is this yet another example of the double standards I was talking about? and perhaps karlos can tell us if Newsweek is part of his alleged zionist media conspiracy against russia - preferably with some evidence of course....

btw - if russia wasn't an expansionist state then how did it acquire all those non-russian territories that are now part of the russian federation?

chechnya for example.

please explain (preferably without the use of doublethink).

and here's another pertinent question for karlos, conspiracy analyst and the rest of the putin-bootlickers.

Do you agree that the september 1999 apartment bombings in Russia were a false flag attack that helped Putin's rise to power and were then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

....or do you support the official conspiracy theory?



The current Russian government inherited the Tsarist Empire.
The current Russian government was born of a Revolution.
They defeated the Nazi attempted takeover of the world.
They didn't march into Germany either in 1914 or 1941.

But then again one can argue anything regarding the past.

Now in the last ten years Russia hasn't characterised half the world as 'terrorist states'. The fact that it has tried to preserve its territory including Chechenya isnt a crime. That the Russian security services probably planted the bombs in Moscow is a fact which I have commented on before.
But they never created an 'axis of evil' encompassing oil rich states. The USA did.

Again I repeat its no coincidence you have the same line as Newsweek.
Its upsets the world balance of power. Yanks think they have a monopoly on human rights, on world geopolitics and on world oil.

The issue at stake is whether the Russian state is an expansionist state. I Dont recall it invading western Europe in the last 200 years but then again maybe I dont know my history. I thought Napoleon, Kaizer and Hitler were European invaders. But I could be wrong. Correct me.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly correct Conspiracy Analyst. I feel no fear with regard to Russia or Putin but have a morbid dread at what America is doing. Bush is head of a group of people who have us in their sights. That is the entire reason for attacking Bush and it does not imply any "worship" of Putin at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conspiracy analyst wrote:
Correct me.


In 1939 Soviet Russia marshalled 466,516 soldiers, 3739 tanks, 380 armored cars, and approximately 1,200 fighters, 600 bombers, and 200 other aircraft against Poland.

They then attacked Finland and annexed Lithuania, Romania and Estonia in the early stages of the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conspiracy analyst wrote:
That the Russian security services probably planted the bombs in Moscow is a fact which I have commented on before.

well let's hear it then!

Do you agree that the september 1999 apartment bombings in Russia were a false flag attack that helped Putin's rise to power and were then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war - or do you support the official conspiracy theory?

why do you and the other putin-bootlickers find it so difficult to address this question or to explain your deafening silence on this issue?

what you seem to be saying is that even if putin and his minions did murder and maim hundreds of their own citizens in this way to achieve these ends - it somehow doesn't matter because their agenda fits in with yours - and as long it enables you to sit around indulging your international power struggle fantasies you're happy to sweep it under the carpet.

I don't think hypocrisy can get any more nauseating and cynical than that.

so I'll say it again - when america carries out a false flag attack that boosts support for bush's ailing administration and he then uses it as an excuse to invade afghanistan and iraq you spend the next 7 years going absolutely apeshit with indignation.

but when russia carries out a false flag attack that helps Putin's rise to power and is then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war you say nothing or make excuses for it.

you hate bush but have a very different attitude when putin does the same things you hate bush for.

how do you justify this blatant double standard?

conspiracy analyst wrote:
Again I repeat its no coincidence you have the same line as Newsweek.

* - I think bush and co are just as evil as you do. but unlike you I'm not in love with their opposames in Russia.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
Its upsets the world balance of power.

there you go again - as long as putin "upsets the world balance of power" you don't care if he's as evil as bush. as long as he's anti-USA it's OK.

if bush ruled the world it would certainly be hell, but I'm sure that if uncle vlad took the reigns it would be heaven on earth wouldn't it? Rolling Eyes

thanks for proving my point yet again.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
They defeated the Nazi attempted takeover of the world.
They didn't march into Germany either in 1914 or 1941.

You forgot to mention that they happily collaborated with the Nazis from 1939-1941 until they were forced to switch sides out of sheer desperation.

They signed a pact with the nazis prior to ww2 which divided europe between them. the USSR then invaded Poland and occupied the territory agreed with nazi germany beforehand, followed by the baltic states, finland and so on....

jomper wrote:
conspiracy analyst wrote:
Correct me.


In 1939 Soviet Russia marshalled 466,516 soldiers, 3739 tanks, 380 armored cars, and approximately 1,200 fighters, 600 bombers, and 200 other aircraft against Poland.

They then attacked Finland and annexed Lithuania, Romania and Estonia in the early stages of the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

thanks - that's well worth a read - but wilful ignorance is difficult to cure.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
The issue at stake is whether the Russian state is an expansionist state. I Dont recall it invading western Europe in the last 200 years but then again maybe I dont know my history. I thought Napoleon, Kaizer and Hitler were European invaders.

So never mind the millions of victims of russian and soviet tyranny - because these victims were people you don't care about.

while russia was acquiring vast swathes of non-russian territory (often in an extremely brutal, genocidal manner) it didn't invade anyone that matters to you - so it was ok.

More nauseaing hypocrisy - epecially in view of your knicker-twisting indignation about bush's atrocities.

So, in summary:

because you hate Bush & co, and Putin opposes bush & co, by virtue of that alone he's ok in your book.

and in order to maintain this position - whenever evidence appears that he's actually not ok, but happens to be exactly the same kind of scumbag as bush (even to the extent of using very similar means to very similar ends) you're prepared to turn a blind eye.

I realise that you seem to be able to rationalise this kind of hypocrisy to yourself, but perhaps you can also realise why I find it sickening.

I guess we'll have to agree to differ.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
Exactly correct Conspiracy Analyst. I feel no fear with regard to Russia or Putin but have a morbid dread at what America is doing. Bush is head of a group of people who have us in their sights. That is the entire reason for attacking Bush and it does not imply any "worship" of Putin at all.

I missed this post earlier when I replied to the one below it - and whaddya know - it's the same old same old....

you fear bush and don't feel threatend by Putin yet - so who cares if he murdered and maimed hundreds of his own citizens in 1999 or what other evils he gets up to? best to keep quiet about it and just drone on about bush day after day....

I'm sure there are many people in this world who have more to fear from bush than putin right now, but have you ever considered that for others it might be the other way round?

let's say you were living in what russian nationalists consider to be their back yard - in one of the countries that have spent most of the last 2 centuries under the russian/soviet jackboot (which periodically involved being on the receiving end of genocidal terror) and are now struggling to establish themselves as independent states - while having very real concerns about a resurgent russia on which they're still dependent for energy and other essential supplies - a fact that a murdering scumbag like uncle vlad is only too happy to exploit.

there are tens of millions of people in central and eastern europe living in this situation.

and although I realise (based on the putin-bootlicking contributions to this thread so far) that the likes of you and karlos and conspiracy analyst probably don't give a nonsense about them as long as you're ok - try putting youself in their shoes for a moment and looking at it from a different POV.

who would you fear most if you were in their position?

and why do you guys feel that it's so necessary choose one side against the other anyway? maybe the really bad guys own all the horses in the race....
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you fear bush and don't feel threatend by Putin yet - so who cares if he murdered and maimed hundreds of his own citizens in 1999 or what other evils he gets up to? best to keep quiet about it and just drone on about bush day after day....

Yes - well spotted - I fear Bush and do not feel threatened by Putin. I do not "drone on" about Bush. Any droning on this thread is being done by you, interspersed with emotional and silly words like your repeated use of "bootlicking". I care about his murders just as I care about the murders in Tibet or East Timor or in Africa or the inevitable deaths about to happen in Kosovo. I doubt you do any more to ameliorate those situations than anyone else around here so get off your high horse and stop being so effing sanctimonious. What exactly are you saying anyway.? Because Putin is a monster we should stop any criticism of Bush?? We should spread our concerns around the globe and be fair and even handed in our condemnation of despots? Where does it stop? Russians should not criticise Putin because the Chinese are as bad? I should not hate Blair and what he and his kind are doing to MY country and MY family because Putin is as bad to his society? Just what is your point???

Quote:
I'm sure there are many people in this world who have more to fear from bush than putin right now, but have you ever considered that for others it might be the other way round?

Let the "others" debate their concerns. I will debate mine! It is not a case of ignoring the problems of other people just because I am addressing the threat to myself. What a childish conclusion to draw. Just who do you think you are to judge others in this way? What are you doing about Putin? Please let us know what measures you are taking to try and help all those unfortunates under his jackboot.

Quote:
and although I realise (based on the putin-bootlicking contributions to this thread so far) that the likes of you and karlos and conspiracy analyst probably don't give a nonsense about them as long as you're ok - try putting youself in their shoes for a moment and looking at it from a different POV.

Try being less **ng self righteous you arrogant jerk. Just how do you translate your "caring" into doing something if you are so much more humane that the rest of us.

Quote:
and why do you guys feel that it's so necessary choose one side against the other anyway? maybe the really bad guys own all the horses in the race....

It isn't a question of choosing. The victim of a mugging doesn't choose to be mugged. Putin is not ripping up the constitution and did not bomb London on 7/7 or introduce a range of laws to spy on us and is not sending members of our military to fight and die in illegal wars. What is so difficult for you to follow about people in a given society caring about their own society first and foremost? Why do you want to reduce this thread to the level of a schoolyard name-calling rant? Is it the best you can do?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Deluded on Putin Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you agree that the september 1999 apartment bombings in Russia were a false flag attack that helped Putin's rise to power and were then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war - or do you support the official conspiracy theory?


Perhaps I don't know enough about the subject, but I'm pretty clueless about how blowing up his blocks of flats would have helped Putin's rise to power or declare war on Chechenya.

If Putin was handpicked by the power elite in Russia to be its President, why would to get public support by blowing up tower blocks?

While, the Chechen conflict has been stirred up by MI6 in league with CIA to destabilise Russia. I don't think Putin would need to blow up anything to justify intervention there.

Why people believe that the Russian secret service did the Polonium killing of Alexander Litvinenko is totally beyond me. The guy who supposed to have done it was elected into the Russian parliament. The Russian people back Putin and don't trust Litvinenko. Litvinenko's book is irrelevant to Putin's popularity. If anything, Litvinenko's accusations probably boosts Putin popularity who believe that Litvinenko is merely lying on behalf of the West.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jomper wrote:
conspiracy analyst wrote:
Correct me.


In 1939 Soviet Russia marshalled 466,516 soldiers, 3739 tanks, 380 armored cars, and approximately 1,200 fighters, 600 bombers, and 200 other aircraft against Poland.

They then attacked Finland and annexed Lithuania, Romania and Estonia in the early stages of the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact


This was done in response to Hitlers invasion.
Like today when the Russians end up pointing missiles on Europe it is because previoulsy America places them against Moscow.

When there was a balance of power the USA was restrained. Now it has become unhinged, like Hitler before them, they remain the biggest threat. Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
Yes - well spotted - I fear Bush and do not feel threatened by Putin. I do not "drone on" about Bush. Any droning on this thread is being done by you,

no - all I did was make a few simple and obvious points, which you and some other people clearly didn't like. it's not my fault that trying to get you, karlos and co to actually address them has been like trying to get blood out of a stone.


blackcat wrote:
Because Putin is a monster we should stop any criticism of Bush??

and when you can't answer simple questions you make up nonsense. I've never said or implied anything of the kind, so why pretend that I did?


blackcat wrote:
Just what is your point???

my points about people hating bush but having a very different attitude when putin does the same things they hate bush for, are as obvious as the nose on your face. they have been all along.

as has the fact that the responses from people who objected to what I said have consistently avoided addressing those points while showing them to be true.


blackcat wrote:
I care about his murders.

well that's nice to hear. it's certainly an advance on stuff like "I would relish the rebirth of Soviet power to obliterate the US". it's a shame that it's taken so long for just one of the people who didn't like what I said to actually get round to partially addressing one of the issues I raised.

wow.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conspiracy analyst wrote:
This was done in response to Hitlers invasion.

that's completely untrue, but why am I not surprised?

when the nazi-soviet pact was signed in august 1939, the two parties agreed to split europe between them, and also specifically agreed to partition Poland. they then both went on to occupy the areas they had agreed would be assigned to them in august 1939. did you really not know that?

but then again, I just discovered that you think arthur c clarke "scripted" the moon landing "hoax" despite having no evidence for this whatsoever, other than a report that he might be a paedophile that was shown to be false. on that basis, I guess your capacity for deliberately putting 2 and 2 together and making 5 if it suits your agenda is probably close to infinite!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gruts wrote:
conspiracy analyst wrote:
That the Russian security services probably planted the bombs in Moscow is a fact which I have commented on before.

well let's hear it then!

Do you agree that the september 1999 apartment bombings in Russia were a false flag attack that helped Putin's rise to power and were then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war - or do you support the official conspiracy theory?

why do you and the other putin-bootlickers find it so difficult to address this question or to explain your deafening silence on this issue?

what you seem to be saying is that even if putin and his minions did murder and maim hundreds of their own citizens in this way to achieve these ends - it somehow doesn't matter because their agenda fits in with yours - and as long it enables you to sit around indulging your international power struggle fantasies you're happy to sweep it under the carpet.

I don't think hypocrisy can get any more nauseating and cynical than that.

so I'll say it again - when america carries out a false flag attack that boosts support for bush's ailing administration and he then uses it as an excuse to invade afghanistan and iraq you spend the next 7 years going absolutely apeshit with indignation.

but when russia carries out a false flag attack that helps Putin's rise to power and is then used as a convenient excuse to launch the second Chechen war you say nothing or make excuses for it.

you hate bush but have a very different attitude when putin does the same things you hate bush for.

how do you justify this blatant double standard?

conspiracy analyst wrote:
Again I repeat its no coincidence you have the same line as Newsweek.

* - I think bush and co are just as evil as you do. but unlike you I'm not in love with their opposames in Russia.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
Its upsets the world balance of power.

there you go again - as long as putin "upsets the world balance of power" you don't care if he's as evil as bush. as long as he's anti-USA it's OK.

if bush ruled the world it would certainly be hell, but I'm sure that if uncle vlad took the reigns it would be heaven on earth wouldn't it? Rolling Eyes

thanks for proving my point yet again.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
They defeated the Nazi attempted takeover of the world.
They didn't march into Germany either in 1914 or 1941.

You forgot to mention that they happily collaborated with the Nazis from 1939-1941 until they were forced to switch sides out of sheer desperation.

They signed a pact with the nazis prior to ww2 which divided europe between them. the USSR then invaded Poland and occupied the territory agreed with nazi germany beforehand, followed by the baltic states, finland and so on....

jomper wrote:
conspiracy analyst wrote:
Correct me.


In 1939 Soviet Russia marshalled 466,516 soldiers, 3739 tanks, 380 armored cars, and approximately 1,200 fighters, 600 bombers, and 200 other aircraft against Poland.

They then attacked Finland and annexed Lithuania, Romania and Estonia in the early stages of the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

thanks - that's well worth a read - but wilful ignorance is difficult to cure.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
The issue at stake is whether the Russian state is an expansionist state. I Dont recall it invading western Europe in the last 200 years but then again maybe I dont know my history. I thought Napoleon, Kaizer and Hitler were European invaders.

So never mind the millions of victims of russian and soviet tyranny - because these victims were people you don't care about.

while russia was acquiring vast swathes of non-russian territory (often in an extremely brutal, genocidal manner) it didn't invade anyone that matters to you - so it was ok.

More nauseaing hypocrisy - epecially in view of your knicker-twisting indignation about bush's atrocities.

So, in summary:

because you hate Bush & co, and Putin opposes bush & co, by virtue of that alone he's ok in your book.

and in order to maintain this position - whenever evidence appears that he's actually not ok, but happens to be exactly the same kind of scumbag as bush (even to the extent of using very similar means to very similar ends) you're prepared to turn a blind eye.

I realise that you seem to be able to rationalise this kind of hypocrisy to yourself, but perhaps you can also realise why I find it sickening.

I guess we'll have to agree to differ.


Russia doesn't rule the world nor does it currency underpin world trade. If Russia was in charge of the world or wanted to take over the world then I would agree with your analogy of a plague of both your houses. But this particular strand of geopolitical thought whereby the USA is evil, so is Saddam, so is Russia therefore they are all equally evil doesn't take into account that countries are products of their histories.

When Stalin agreed to the Molotov-Ribentrop pact he was only frightened that Britain and Germany had colluded to invade his country behind his back. The issue still remains as to whether Russia in the 1930's was an expansionary state seeking to take over the world or not. The same rules apply today.

So far you have no argument to prove anything other than Chechenya and Afghanistan of the 1980's. During the cold war the Reaganites had a more serious approach to yours. They found commies everywhere even in their own back yard, where they didn't even exist. Poor farmers were exterminated en masse for asking for basic living conditions by the USA.

On last count the USA has invaded since WW2 tens of countries and has been instrumental in supporting reactionary regimes the world over. To put in a nutshell, I do prefer the Kalashnikov to M16. You think they are both the same. I dont.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well it's nice to know that as well as being a putin-bootlicker, you're also an apologist/useful idiot of the former USSR - so thanks for inadvertently helping to answer a question in my initial post.

therefore it's no surprise that you're happy to make excuses for whatever evils the kalashnikov has been responsible for (or pretend to yourself that they never happened) - so there's nothing to distract you from jumping up and down telling everybody just how bad you think the M16 is.

so thanks for proving my point - yet again.

but if truth was on your side you wouldn't need to keep avoiding it - would you?

and if opposing bush really is more important to you than acknowledging putin's mass murder of his own citizens I feel sorry for you.

likewise for getting your knickers in an endless twist about the crimes of the USA while living in blinkered denial about the crimes of russia and the USSR.

forgive me for not thinking that it's obligatory to turn everything into "the goodies vs the baddies", pick your team and appoint yourself as its unofficial cheerleader.

and then spend the rest of your life self-righteously bleating on about the other side's misdemeanours at every opportunity while hypocritically turning a blind eye to those carried out by your side.

if that's what floats your boat, go for it - but putin-bootlicking hypocrisy is a lifestyle choice that I'd rather not choose.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you were faced by the Nazis overruning your country or the British Empire because you didn't want to continue dying for the Royal Families in Europe you wouldn't of course take a side as they are all the ...same.

Sleight problem is that Russia is the only modern state that was created on the basis of Peace, not war. It was invaded by 14 imperialist countries led by Churchill and then invaded again by Hitler. It is now facing the Yugoslav option by the NWO.

Luckily they have nuclear weapons and they can hold the USA at arms lengths. Other smaller countries who dont have that privilige suffer like Iraq.

I dont support Putin Stalin or any other Russian politcian like I did not support Saddam. But in a military conflict between the USA and these countries I side with those countries. I know the difference between an expansionist state and who wants to take over the world and those who are defending themselves from being overrun.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conspiracy analyst wrote:
I dont support Putin Stalin or any other Russian politcian like I did not support Saddam. But in a military conflict between the USA and these countries I side with those countries. I know the difference between an expansionist state and who wants to take over the world and those who are defending themselves from being overrun.

I guess your argument here is 'my enemy's enemy is my friend', or sort of.
I would agree with that.

However, I think we need a shift of paradigm here.

I would argue that, once more, all we see is the Hegelian dialectic process in progress:
- creation of thesis
- creation of antithesis
- bringing them into conflict
- managing the conflict
- moving on to a controlled synthesis

It's the same story, over and over and over again, played out on the back of our species.

For example:

- It is a historical fact that the secret US establishment transferred technological know-how to the USSR during the Cold War (e.g. the ICBM technology for nuclear missiles, a 'quantum leap' in military capability).

- Rockefeller interests (among other Western ones) helped build truck factories in the USSR during the Vietnam war (when it was well known that the main supplier of North Vietnam was the USSR).

- More recently, it is well known how the CIA supported and guided the Taleban, or how the US supplied Saddam with weaponry.

Hence, my working hypothesis is that this 'Putin confrontation' is a charade. Like I said, we need a shift of paradigm.

Maybe something along the lines of this? Who knows.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1172807855110808149

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ yes - maybe there are no good guys....

conspiracy analyst wrote:
Sleight problem is that Russia is the only modern state that was created on the basis of Peace, not war.

those poor innocent russian lambs eh?

slight problem is that you still haven't explained how russia acquired all those huge swathes of land inhabited by non-russians that are now part of the russian federation.

could it have been by invading them and then perhaps subjecting them to all manner of oppression that frequently bordered on genocide? Try reading about the history of chechnya for example.

please explain how russia was not an expansionist state while it was invading, occupying and subjecting chechnya to russuian rule and how the chechens were not "defending themselves from being overrun".

and when the ussr invaded czechoslovakia in 1968 whose side were you on then?

and is it just russia and the ussr that you'll support no matter what (as long as they're anti-USA) or does your hypocrisy extend elsewhere too? for example, do you think the tibetan religious reactionaries were a threat to the lovingly progressive chinese in 1950?

conspiracy analyst wrote:
If you were faced by the Nazis overruning your country or the British Empire because you didn't want to continue dying for the Royal Families in Europe you wouldn't of course take a side as they are all the ...same.

what's the difference between the nazis overrunning your country and committing genocide and the soviets overrunning your country and committing genocide?

of course, it's ok for the likes of you to sit around condemning the former while rationalising the latter but unfortunately, the victims of crimes against humanity don't have the luxury of being able to make such a distinction....

and just because you can pretend to yourself that your heroes the russkies never did anything bad doesn't mean that it's true.

conspiracy analyst wrote:
I dont support Putin Stalin or any other Russian politcian like I did not support Saddam. But in a military conflict between the USA and these countries I side with those countries.

the fact that the yanks got the upper hand doesn't mean the soviets never wanted to rule the world....

so everything the USA has ever done was aggressive and everything the USSR/Russia has ever done was defensive - right?

you sound more and more like an opposame of the neocons.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What reactionaries like Gruts should remember is that if it wasn't for the incredible bravery of Russians in defending Stalingrad we would all be likely living in the Empire of Hitler's Grossdeutschesreich.

But maybe that's what the ghastly Gruts misses most of all causing him to rotate and spew in all directions with these tirades.

As Wolfgang Niedecke, the lead singer from the German group BAP sang, "The World should understand Stalingrad" ...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory,
Gruts is actually only pointing out that Putin is no better than the other guys....

He/she is not being reactionary but only doing what this forum was designed for reasoned debate about the issues affecting us all.

Putin is no angel and in my own opinion as much a pawn of all that is going on as anyone else is including Bush. Whether they are willing pawns or not is beside the point.

I agree with alot of what Gruts has been saying in this thread, Putin is no better an alternative for the world than the so called democracies forcing others into their line through violence and mayhem.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be helpful if people read the first two of Tony Gosling's posts on this thread which he started. "Gruts" is totally ignoring the fact that Putin is not adored by contributors to this thread and there are no "Putin bootlickers" that I can see here. He seems to be trying to flame and it is getting tedious.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gruts wrote:
OMG!!!!! I didn't realise that referring to russia as an expansionist state is now an anti-russian thoughtcrime! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


Yes Gruts et all

TRUTH DOES NOT NEED TO BE PROTECTED BY LEGISLATION

Only lies require this defence

For anyone still remotely considering Putin a good guy - wakey wakey

GWBH = CIA
PUTIN = KGB

USSA and USSR and now USSE are ZOG controlled.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/news/article_1396412.php/Rus sian_parliament_passes_draft_to_curb_foreign_investment

Quote:
Russian parliament passes draft to curb foreign investment

Mar 21, 2008, 16:06 GMT

Moscow - Russia's parliament on Friday voted 355 to 3 in favour of draft legislation limiting foreign investment in strategic sectors including oil and gas, publishing, telecoms and fishing, news agency Interfax reported.

Under the bill, foreigners are forbidden from buying a significant stake in companies without government approval in industries defined as crucial to national security.

Friday's vote brings one step closer to being enacted a law that has drawn criticism at home and provoked concern among foreign investors who fear more state bureaucracy blocking business deals.

The Kremlin administration personally oversaw amendments extending the list of sectors viewed as strategic and other fine points of the bill, said Martin Shakkum, head of the Construction and Land Policy Committee, which with the cabinet is sponsoring the law.

Shakkum judged Friday that the bill, now in its second reading, would not be seriously revised before the third and final reading after which it will be put before Russia's upper house and President Vladimir Putin to be signed into law.

The bill requires foreign investors to seek the approval of a government commission to acquire more than 50 per cent of a company in one of the wide-ranging sectors defined as 'strategic.'

Russian newspapers listed the nuclear, aerospace and arms industry, as well as oil and gas, fishing and mass media among the 42 strategic sectors.

But some Russian lawmakers have criticized the breadth of sectors seen as crucial to defence and security.

The Minister of IT and Communications, Leonid Reyman, said last week that the bill could impede investment in the telecommunications market and cause a slow-down in the booming industry.

It could take anywhere up to six months for approval on business deals from a comission headed by the prime minister, according to Russian media estimates.

If passed into law, Putin, who has promised to become prime minister after May, would then be the first to head the new commission deciding on foreign requests to invest in strategic sectors.


Whatever Putin is, it is difficult to criticise these kinds of measures which protect Russia's interests, especially when vulture capitalism is rampant in the west. We could do with a bit of it here, especially the bit about no foreign ownership of mass media.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I own a small grocery store I am a wannabe Tesco monopoly as I would like to get bigger and badder.

When my local grocery store is faced by a closure by Tesco I dont go round chanting they are all the same all wannabe crooks which they might well be.

I understand that there is a conflict brewing and between a community which opposes Tescos monopoly expansion and my local grocer who is about to go under (whom I dont trust as far as I can throw him) I am still against the Tesco monopoly.

Gruts erases the dynamic of conflict between nations, superpowers and the present crisis in such a manner whereby there is plague on everybodys houses. This is a fashionable theory when you have lived in the UK for most of your life, haven't been colonised directly since Roman times and you assume that lecturing other countries on the merits of human rights is a purely British 'right' acquired through maintaining an Empire for a century or more.

The USA has been ruler of the world since WW2. It will maintain the ire of most people on the planet until it is disbanded. Everybody else from the Chinese premier, to the Russian one, to the Venezuelan one will be judged differently by a different yardstick.

How many Stalin killed or Hitler or Churchill is for historians. What we dont want is for the Yanks to overtake all three using thermonuclear weapons. They were after all their first users. And they seem to want to repeat this all over...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putin Stops the War

I'd have thought a better title for this thread would be, Putin Prevents the War. Its only because of him that Iran has not yet been attacked. The US fleet in the Gulf are now sitting ducks for the low-flying 5 times speed of sound missiles Putin has provided to Iran. He has a quiet, non-confrontational manner. In the wake of 9/11 a more aggressive character could easily have refused the imperious US demands for bases in the 'stans' but he allowed the US to move in - he knew very well what those Neo-Con maniacs were about.

http://yournewreality.blogspot.com/2007/10/russias-putin-iran-is-not-a fraid-of-us.html
Quote:
"Threatening someone, in this case the Iranian leadership and Iranian people, will lead nowhere," Putin said Monday during his trip to Germany. "They are not afraid, believe me." - October 2007.

That is rather quiet, indeed pleaseant language, whereby he informs the US that it cannot attack Iran.

Quote:
Barely known to most in the West is that Putin is not alone in backing Iran against the threats of military strikes from the United States and Israel. Putin has the support of China, most of the 'Stans (including Afghanistan and Pakistan) and more than a dozen other countries who have lined up with China and Russia under the umbrella of new trade and economic alliances.

In the past two years, Iran has cut new energy deals with China, Russia, Pakistan and India worth hundreds of billions of dollars. ..Just to ram home the point that Russia and China will not tolerate any attacks on Iran, Putin has now placed his arsenal of long range, strategic bombers on airborne stand-by for the rest of October....Putin also recently told a summit of energy-rich Caspian Sea bordering nations that they should not allow the United States to use their territory for staging attacks on Iran
That war is off! Its off because Russia says 'No.' And means it.

We now live in a bipolar world. Itchy Zionist fingers hover over nuclear-missile launch buttons in submarines sold to Irael by Germany - to its eternal shame (part of the unending Great Holocaust Guilt Industry no doubt). But, they can't lauch 'em. Nope. Zionist armies patrol the mountains of Turkey readying for the invasion - which isn't going to happen. Russia says no!

What I like about Putin is that he is tough, and firm, but in a mild manner. Talking to Russians, one hears how he has given them back their self-respect.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Talking to Russians, one hears how he has given them back their self-respect.

Which annoys the hell out of "Gruts" and all the other Bush apologists!!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That war is off! Its off because Russia says 'No.' And means it.


Absolutely right on, Astro3! Hooray for Russia and China for standing up to the bully on the block. We should be grateful for Russia's intervention in this way. I've been praying that it would happen & now it has!

Russia and China both belong to a collective defence organisation called the Collective Security Treaty Organisation (CSTO). This is what it looks like:




No wonder Bushco got the CIA to use Tibetan organisations in the latest episode of China-bashing in which the BBC is playing its usual propaganda role. Evidence shows this 'uprising' was planned months in advance to coincide with the Olympic Games.

Please see http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/03/tibet-uprising.html and
http://chimesofreedom.blogspot.com/2008/03/tibet-uprising-us-governmen t-funding.html

Quote:
Correction: SCO not CSTO and MAP
note this has been corrected in article below ... above line should read:


"Russia and China both belong to a collective defence organisation called the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). This is what it looks like:"


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Russia and China both belong to a collective defence organisation called the Collective Security Treaty Organisation (CSTO). This is what it looks like:


are you sure that is the correct map showing the (CSTO)?. china is not even highlighted.

see attachment.



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for pointing out the error, Marky54. I mistakenly published the Map for the CSTO in place of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) which is the relevant trade and security organisation including both Russia and China.

The SCO was founded in 2001 by China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. It has observer relations with India, Pakistan, Mongolia and, significantly, Iran.

Hence the recent warning to the USA not to attack Iran.

Here is the correct map:



The CSTO is a collective security organisation founded six years ago by Russia, Armenia, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Belarus.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
Exactly correct Conspiracy Analyst. I feel no fear with regard to Russia or Putin but have a morbid dread at what America is doing. Bush is head of a group of people who have us in their sights. That is the entire reason for attacking Bush and it does not imply any "worship" of Putin at all.



Ok, so let me make sure I've got this straight, then. You've got no problems whatsoever with a former KGB agent bulldozing his way to power, choosing his successor in a supposedly democratic election, stifling dissent and the free press, committing election fraud, passing laws to make it more difficult for opposition parties to establish themselves in the parliament, arresting opposition opponents, appointing himself prime minister, or using trumped up charges to arrest the owners of one of the few remaining competitors to Gasprom and therefore making it easier to nationalize the largest industry in the country...

just so we're clear.

It must be nice to live in so black-and-white a world where you become the good guy simply by virtue of opposing a bad guy...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
Quote:
Talking to Russians, one hears how he has given them back their self-respect.

Which annoys the hell out of "Gruts" and all the other Bush apologists!!


Ah, so we get to the heart of the issue. Let me say it once more, because apparently the kids in the back of the class aren't picking it up.

Opposing Bush does not make one the 'good guy' by defualt. As an add-on, opposing Putin does not make you a "Bush apologist". In matter of fact, calling someone a "Bush apologist" does little more normally than to call attention to a person's lack of any reasonable argument.

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