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Transition Towns - Let's discuss
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simplesimon
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iro wrote:
Quote:
if peak oil happens and people go hungry, things get desperate, crime goes mad and law and order breaks down or splinters then all a TT or similar self sustaining agricultural community is going to be is a big fat target mad max style for any hungry or opportunistic persons to descend upon and take for themselves.


I think you're quite right about that.

Quote:
therefore its a nice exercise, building up the infastructure for bigger stronger and more selfish people to steal off you mad max style. But its an ultimately futile and hopelessly idealistic one unless they do it US patriot movement style and arm themselves to the teeth and train daily in defending their community at any cost


Indeed, hence psyops like Columbine, Virginia Tech, Port Arthur etc., and the constant maligning of those groups. The state will not allow people the means to live free and independent of it. Hence the martial law exercises. And they won't hesitate to use the serious hardware of which they have a monopoly, due to their power to create money from nothing.

I predict that before long there will be a "massacre" psyop involving bows and arrows or crossbows.


John White wrote:
Quote:
God damn that's cynical... and hardly realistic.

Iro clearly said "if... people go hungry". Are you saying that is unrealistic, or that it's unrealistic to suppose hungry people would steal food from a "Transition Town", or anywhere they can?

John White wrote:
Quote:
Find something to have some belief in, just for your own sake OK?
But its hardly a need to talk about Mad Max fantasies on an internet forum
I do think you need to get some kind of faith in something Iro, you've actually said if the going gets tough you'll top yourself from your post above.


I think you're aiming well below the belt here John. I don't wish to fall out with you, so I won't describe what I think you're doing here, but it does you no credit.

slow_dazzle wrote:
Quote:
Forget the gunning up stuff. If it gets that bad life won't be worth living anyway.

If it does get that bad, you'll wish you'd armed yourself when you could. Survival instinct.
As Iro alluded to, it's also obvious that everyone has a breaking point of despair. That's not cynicism or pessimism, it's realism.


Quote:
It is absolutely inconceivable that the governments of the west have not been fully aware of the effect of the energy demand line crossing the supply line for a long time. ...


Accepting for the purposes of argument that peak-oil is real and imminent, of course they are "aware".

Quote:
...There has been virtually no attempt to develop a Plan B, ...

How can anyone believe the elites would be "aware" without developing multiple plans to preserve their dominance, let alone their survival?

Quote:
.. at least, not one that has ever been overtly stated.

They're keeping their plans to themselves? Who would have thought?

Quote:
I don't buy the global depopulation plan

Why not? What is lacking - means, motive, or will?

Quote:
because I don't buy the notion of a cabal in charge of everything

You don't have to. However, unless the elites practise a version of "democracy" among themselves, or have some kind of group solidarity, it's reasonable to suppose that there are dominant members of the elite - the elite of the elite who can be fairly described as having a degree of control over everything. In either case, what reason is there to think there is any limit to their evil?

JoseFreitas wrote:
Quote:
I'm sort of hoping that * hits the fan hard sometime soon. Only a massive wave of unrest and civil confusion will make it possible to institute the huge changes we need to make a transition.

Mmm. Order ab chao. Nice.

Ring any bells with anyone? It reminds me of something, I'm sure.

I think I'd rather do my best to prevent it happening, thank you. And who told you that you needed to be "transited"?

Quote:
in the evd a lot of the democratic gains we made over the last couple of centuries

It's worth remembering that these have come at great cost.

From "The Effects and Origins of the Great War" by A.J.P. Taylor:

==============
"Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He could exchange his money for any other currency without restriction or limit. He could buy goods from any country in the world on the same terms as he bought goods at home. For that matter, a foreigner could spend his life in this country without permit and without informing the police. Unlike the countries of the European continent, the state did not require its citizens to perform military service. An Englishman could enlist, if he chose, in the regular army, the navy, or the territorials. He could also ignore, if he chose, the demands of national defence. Substantial householders were occasionally called on for jury service. Otherwise, only those helped the state who wished to do so. The Englishman paid taxes on a modest scale: nearly £200 million in 1913-14, or rather less than 8 per cent. of the national income. The state intervened to prevent the citizen from eating adulterated food or contracting certain infectious diseases. It imposed safety rules in factories, and prevented women, and adult males in some industries, from working excessive hours. The state saw to it that children received education up to the age of 13. Since 1 January 1909, it provided a meagre pension for the needy over the age of 70. Since 1911, it helped to insure certain classes of workers against sickness and unemployment. This tendency towards more state action was increasing. Expenditure on the social services had roughly doubled since the Liberals took office in 1905. Still, broadly speaking, the state acted only to help those who could not help themselves. It left the adult citizen alone."
==============

I found this at once inspiring and depressing. I'm trying to obtain a copy of the book, but it seems quite obscure. Amazon don't list it, for example.

I'd be much more comfortable if people were taking some of the "Transition Towns" measures themselves, independent of any "movement" or top down control. My point about it being pushed on "The Archers" was perfectly serious. It does seem to have the official stamp of approval.


Iro wrote:
Quote:
it will just be a nice isolationist hobbyist regime for people to have an alternative life.


I don't think I would call the idea isolationist. There are aspects of it that I find very appealing. I haven't looked very far into it, but think there are good reasons to be very wary of the "movement" and it's motives. Their curious denial of Codex Alimentarius, and the Common Purpose-esque trappings for a start.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
John White wrote:
Find something to have some belief in, just for your own sake OK?
But its hardly a need to talk about Mad Max fantasies on an internet forum
I do think you need to get some kind of faith in something Iro, you've actually said if the going gets tough you'll top yourself from your post above.



I think you're aiming well below the belt here John. I don't wish to fall out with you, so I won't describe what I think you're doing here, but it does you no credit.


Iro and I know each other fairly well, which is why I was suprised by what he wrote, but yeah I probably over did it I'll accept that, apolgies. Sometimes I've over passionate, arnt we all?

But we DO need to believe: in each other! How we can ever expect to help anything or change anything if we cant believe in each over IS a mystery to me. If we cant, then we give up: give up now! Take this experiance for what its worth for yourself, and dont give a damn about anything else

I really dont see it as in anyway niave, idealistic or fantastic to believe in the power of community. I can see how the world of politics and opinions and economics and consumerism: the whole kaboodle of consensus trance: works to make us THINK community is just a bunch of selfish self obsessed b*stards, but actually, this is a perversion of human nature and people ARE better than that

That is my belief

Share it or dont share it, thats up to you

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simplesimon
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simplesimon wrote:
Quote:
...Common Purpose-esque trappings...


I'd like to withdraw that.

Now that I've looked at their website and read a little of their literature, I realise that I should have said:

"It absolutely reeks of Common Purpose and the NWO"


===============
From: "The Transitions Initiatives Primer":

"Setting up your Transition Initiative - criteria":

...Our trustees and funders want to make sure that while we actively nurture embryonic projects, we only promote to "official" status those communities we feel are ready to move into the awareness raising stage. This status confers additional levels of support... We've seen at least one community stall because they didn't have the right mindset or a suitable group of people...The distinct roles of "Local Transition Initiative", "Local Transition Hub" and "Temporary Initiating Hub" are very different and need to be discussed at the outset...



Criteria:

1. an understanding of Peak Oil and Climate Change as twin drivers (to be written into your group's constitution or governing documents)
So, you have to believe what we tell you, be doing it for our reasons, and adopt our "basic law".

2. a group of 4-5 people willing to step into leadership roles (not just the boundless enthusiasm of a single person)
This is your "core group". We don't like hierarchy (honest). But inner circles are ok.

3. at least two people from the core team willing to attend an initial two day training course. Initially these will be in Totnes and over time we'll roll them out to other areas as well, including internationally. Transition Training is just UK based right now, but that's going to have to change – we're working on it.
I believe that bit.

4. a potentially strong connection to the local council
To enhance networking with Common Purpose placemen?

5. an initial understanding of the 12 steps (see below)
So you're an "Initiate". Of a 12-step programme?

6. a commitment to ask for help when needed
A commitment to remain subordinate to and dependent on us.

7. a commitment to regularly update your Transition Initiative web presence - either the wiki (collaborative workspace on the web that we'll make available to you), or your own website
A commitment to our process.

8. a commitment to write up something on the Transition Towns blog once every couple of months (the world will be watching...)
Likewise.

9. a commitment, once you're into the Transition, for your group to give at least two presentations to other communities (in the vicinity) that are considering embarking on this journey – a sort of “here’s what we did” or "here's how it was for us" talk

Perhaps soon they will be sending two children from each school to be "trained" and traumatised by watching Al Gore movies - who will then have to tell their friends about it on their return.

10. a commitment to network with other communities in Transition
Somehow I don't think sharing tips on how to grow veggies and pluck chickens is their priority, "networking" wise.

11. minimal conflicts of interests in the core team
???? I think they'll re-write that bit. They're trying to say "The leaders who are not really leaders must be ideologically pure, doctrinally rigid", but end up saying "don't be too corrupt". LMFAO.

12. a commitment to work with the Transition Network re grant applications for funding from national grant giving bodies. Your own local trusts are yours to deal with as appropriate.
Help us get money. You can have some of it.

13. a commitment to strive for inclusivity across your entire initiative. We're aware that we need to strengthen this point in response to concerns about extreme political groups becoming involved in transition initiatives. One way of doing this is for your core group to explicitly state their support the UN Declaration of Human Rights (General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948). You could add this to your constitution (when finalised) so that extreme political groups that have discrimination as a key value cannot participate in the decision-making bodies within your transition initiative. There may be more elegant ways of handling this requirement, and there's a group within the network looking at how that might be done.
I wonder what "extremists" have worried them? People who don't believe in 911? People who would tell their local govern-ment to keep out of it? People who want to spread awareness of Codex Alimentarius? People who want to change their lives in order to gain independence, food security, genuine community, and freedom from the state, rather than those who want to help TT evangelise and change the world?

And why do I have to pledge allegiance to world government to support "human rights"?

You could be a medically skilled tenth generation farmer, who knows how to build a micro-generator, can deliver a breech calf with the aid of shiatsu, strong as a horse, prepared to work like an ox for 16 hours a day...

...but if your "minds not right Luke" you are not welcome in our "community".

====================


I think they're hijacking issues that many here would be concerned with. I support many of the "outcomes" they say they are working towards, despite the handle - "Resilience Indicators":

==========
Resilience indicators might look at the following:

• percentage of food grown locally
• amount of local currency in circulation as a percentage of total money in circulation
• number of businesses locally owned
• average commuting distances for workers in the town
• average commuting distance for people living in the town but working outside it
• percentage of energy produced locally
• quantity of renewable building materials
• proportion of essential goods being manufactured within the community of within a given distance
• proportion of compostable "waste" that is actually composted

===========



John White wrote:
Quote:
I really dont see it as in anyway niave, idealistic or fantastic to believe in the power of community.

Neither do I - well, idealistic perhaps, but nothing wrong with a little of that. But it looks to me as though this is about power over communities (and minds), despite their cuddly words to the contrary.


Quote:
I can see how the world of politics and opinions and economics and consumerism: the whole kaboodle of consensus trance: works to make us THINK community is just a bunch of selfish self obsessed b*stards

If I understand you correctly, I think I would say almost the opposite.

"The more we get together, together, together
The more we get together
The happier we'll be..."

SING NOW!

"The more we get together, together, together
The more we get together
The happier we'll be..."


I don't know if forum members will recognise the reference, but if they do, I hope they will understand the point I'm making. 'Nuff said for now.


I suggest that genuine COMmunity arises spontaneously from within and among, for example from a shared belief system. Imposing a belief system does not create a community. I would venture to suggest that TT's model resembles a union of Soviets, but don't know enough about that to really justify saying so. Still...


They require you to believe what they do, or you're on your own.
There is big money in the background.
It is being pushed on "The Archers".


If one looks at this with a degree of skepticism (or healthy cynicism), one can see people being herded into COMpounds. A bit like cattle.

A bit like in the video above.

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"The hunt for 'anti-semites' is a hunt for pockets of resistance to the NWO"-- Israel Shamir
"What we in America call terrorists are really groups of people that reject the international system..." - Heinz "Henry" Kissinger
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said Simplesimon, my suspicions about Transition Towns were there already that they were a part of the 'Big Agenda', but reading what you've written and quoted......

Quote:
From: "The Transitions Initiatives Primer":

"Setting up your Transition Initiative - criteria":

...Our trustees and funders want to make sure that while we actively nurture embryonic projects, we only promote to "official" status those communities we feel are ready to move into the awareness raising stage. This status confers additional levels of support... We've seen at least one community stall because they didn't have the right mindset or a suitable group of people...The distinct roles of "Local Transition Initiative", "Local Transition Hub" and "Temporary Initiating Hub" are very different and need to be discussed at the outset...


Criteria:

1. an understanding of Peak Oil and Climate Change as twin drivers (to be written into your group's constitution or governing documents)
So, you have to believe what we tell you, be doing it for our reasons, and adopt our "basic law".

2. a group of 4-5 people willing to step into leadership roles (not just the boundless enthusiasm of a single person)
This is your "core group". We don't like hierarchy (honest). But inner circles are ok.

3. at least two people from the core team willing to attend an initial two day training course. Initially these will be in Totnes and over time we'll roll them out to other areas as well, including internationally. Transition Training is just UK based right now, but that's going to have to change – we're working on it.
I believe that bit.

4. a potentially strong connection to the local council
To enhance networking with Common Purpose placemen?

5. an initial understanding of the 12 steps (see below)
So you're an "Initiate". Of a 12-step programme?

6. a commitment to ask for help when needed
A commitment to remain subordinate to and dependent on us.

7. a commitment to regularly update your Transition Initiative web presence - either the wiki (collaborative workspace on the web that we'll make available to you), or your own website
A commitment to our process.

8. a commitment to write up something on the Transition Towns blog once every couple of months (the world will be watching...)
Likewise.

9. a commitment, once you're into the Transition, for your group to give at least two presentations to other communities (in the vicinity) that are considering embarking on this journey – a sort of “here’s what we did” or "here's how it was for us" talk

Perhaps soon they will be sending two children from each school to be "trained" and traumatised by watching Al Gore movies - who will then have to tell their friends about it on their return.

10. a commitment to network with other communities in Transition
Somehow I don't think sharing tips on how to grow veggies and pluck chickens is their priority, "networking" wise.

11. minimal conflicts of interests in the core team
???? I think they'll re-write that bit. They're trying to say "The leaders who are not really leaders must be ideologically pure, doctrinally rigid", but end up saying "don't be too corrupt". LMFAO.

12. a commitment to work with the Transition Network re grant applications for funding from national grant giving bodies. Your own local trusts are yours to deal with as appropriate.
Help us get money. You can have some of it.

13. a commitment to strive for inclusivity across your entire initiative. We're aware that we need to strengthen this point in response to concerns about extreme political groups becoming involved in transition initiatives. One way of doing this is for your core group to explicitly state their support the UN Declaration of Human Rights (General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948). You could add this to your constitution (when finalised) so that extreme political groups that have discrimination as a key value cannot participate in the decision-making bodies within your transition initiative. There may be more elegant ways of handling this requirement, and there's a group within the network looking at how that might be done.
I wonder what "extremists" have worried them? People who don't believe in 911? People who would tell their local govern-ment to keep out of it? People who want to spread awareness of Codex Alimentarius? People who want to change their lives in order to gain independence, food security, genuine community, and freedom from the state, rather than those who want to help TT evangelise and change the world?

And why do I have to pledge allegiance to world government to support "human rights"?

You could be a medically skilled tenth generation farmer, who knows how to build a micro-generator, can deliver a breech calf with the aid of shiatsu, strong as a horse, prepared to work like an ox for 16 hours a day...

...but if your "minds not right Luke" you are not welcome in our "community".


.........has totally convinced me. Question is, what do we do next to confront this initiative before it grows into something that will grow like a cancer?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Totally unconvincing Reply with quote

Justin wrote:
my suspicions about Transition Towns were there already that they were a part of the 'Big Agenda', but reading what you've written and quoted...... ........has totally convinced me. Question is, what do we do next to confront this initiative before it grows into something that will grow like a cancer?


That some of the the mis/disinfo nut cases on this site want to "confront this initiative" is interesting, I've now got through the first part of the book and it's very good:



There is some more info on it here: http://uniteddiversity.com/transition-handbook/

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest a more effective tactic to expose folk like yourself chrisc is for some of us nuts to feign embracing certain issues, just to flush you out.

Your entrenched contrarian outpourings are, erm, well, noted . . .

Keep em coming.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisc wrote:
Quote:
There is some more info on it here: http://uniteddiversity.com/transition-handbook/


When I'd stopped laughing at the name and the concept of "uniteddiversity", I went over to their website. After another chuckle at "Together we have everything" I clicked on the "money" link.

Quote:
After our last Open Coin meeting George Walker took us into his office to continue chatting...In the first OpenCoin meeting he said (in a strong Scottish accent):

“I think there is going to be a global currency. I call it the Global. This will either be a top-down currency from the IMF and World Bank, like existing SDRs (Special Drawing Rights), or a bottom-up, grassroots initiative, like what you are doing, which is much more exciting”



As Joe Pesci (defence lawyer) said in "My Cousin Vinnie" after completely discrediting another witness in 2 minutes flat:

"OK, I'm done with this guy..."

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see that the criticism is going strong.

Don't forget Mahatma Gandhi's words now will you - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

Whatever TT might or might not be it will be sadly ridiculed by many. But those having the last laugh (although there won't be many laughs when peak oil hits) will be those who are prepared.

I'm just sorry I won't be able to see the faces of all those critics when they realize the harsh reality of the future. All that bleating about conspiracy will come to nothing for the them - shame.

As Frank Zappa once said - "There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life."

At least simplesimon is living up to his name.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was under the impression James that peak oil has, hit.

Has it not hit yet ?

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James C
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Gobell wrote:
I was under the impression James that peak oil has, hit.

Has it not hit yet ?


Mmmm, the sarcasm.

Nobody will know until it is clear that oil production is falling. At the moment, outputs are quite static and supply and demand are fairly balanced. Saudi Arabia has lost the spare capacity it once had and the increase in July will likely comprise of sour crude which will be costly to refine. Output of pure conventional crude has been flat for the past 3 years after almost 30 years of year on year growth and only unconventional oil stocks are helping to save the day. (Actually it's 150 years of growth except for in 1973 and during the Iran-Iraq war when outputs dropped - recession resulted on both occasions). I trust you know the difference between conventional and unconventional oil and what this all means?

You'll know when TSHTF as oil will be several hundred $/barrel and you'll struggle to maintain any normality, possibly losing your job as severe recession bites. Right now, oil is still incredibly cheap so we can all remain as greedy and self-centred as ever without having to worry about how the community works and where our next meal might come from.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moved to 'other controversies'

hope that's not too controversial a decision

PM me if you think this belonged in General

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Mark Gobell
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I asked whether Peak Oil has "hit" yet is because:

Lots of pundits are now talking about it.

My diesel is now £6 (pounds) per imperial gallon.

Food has gone through the roof.

Inflation is way beyond the lies that we are spun.

Unemployment is way beyond the lies that we are spun.

I'm also told that it's all India and China's fault.

I'm also told that it's because of the dollar.

I'm also told it's because of bio fuels.

I'm also told that it's down to market "speculation".

I'm also told that it's down to refining capacity.

I'm also told it's because of oil reserves.

I'm also told that oil must die.

I'm also told that oil is bad for us.

I'm also told it's because storms may hit US oil fields and that will hit "supply".

I'm also told that it is partly due to the UK oil tankers dispute.

I'm also told that it's partly due to the frequent Nigerian pipeline explosions.

I was also told that it's the "war" in Iraq.

I'm also told that it's due to fears of Iranian nukes.

I'm also told that it might be down to me, using too much oil.

I'm also told that it's because of North Sea oil depletion.

I'm also told that it's because of instability in the Middle East.

I'm also told that it's because of the Taliban.

And, I'm also told that it's because, erm . . . .

So when, is "peak oil" actually going to "hit" ?

Or has it ?

And, how will we know ?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Gobell wrote:
The reason I asked whether Peak Oil has "hit" yet is because:

Lots of pundits are now talking about it.

My diesel is now £6 (pounds) per imperial gallion.

Food has gone through the roof.

Inflation is way beyond the lies that we are spun.

Unemployment is way beyond the lies that we are spun.

I'm also told that it's all India and China's fault.

I'm also told it's because of bio fuels.

I'm also told that it's down to market "speculation".

I'm also told that it's down to refining capacity.

I'm also told that oil must die.

I'm also told that oil is bad for us.

I'm also told it's because storms may hit US oil fields and that will hit "supply".

I'm also told that it is partly due to the UK oil tankers dispute.

I'm also told that it's partly due to the frequent Nigerian pipeline explosions.

I'm also told that it's due to fears of Iranian nukes.

I'm also told that it might be down to me, using too much oil.

I'm also told that it's because of North Sea oil depletion.

I'm also told that it's because of instability in the Middle East.

I'm also told that it's because of the Taliban.

And, I'm also told that it's because, erm . . . .

So when, is the peak going to "hit" ?

And, how will we know ?


Mark, you are quite aware that you won't be told the truth. There will be lies and subterfuge and scapegoats and disinformation. Anything that will hide the true nature of what is going on. But you can be sure that it's all about energy and the simple reality that the energy required to maintain global economic growth is going to decline, assuming it hasn't already.

As I said, when things get very bad and the price increases above $200/barrel, then you can be sure that peak oil is close or has happened. That and when full world war breaks, heaven forbid.

Apologies if I wrongly detected any sarcasm in your previous post.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you have absolutely no idea then.

Some arbitrary cost per barrel, in your opinion will herald the peak, of peak oil.

Are you saying that all of the reasons above and more are just a coordinated subterfuge ?

A conspiracy to keep "peak oil" quiet?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Gobell wrote:
So you have absolutely no idea then.

Some arbitrary cost per barrel, in your opinion will herald the peak, of peak oil.


Peak oil will likely happen by 2012 but could equally be occurring right now. As I said, conventional output has been flat for 3 years after 150 years of growth. The next decade will be very turbulent as supplies tighten and fall.

But I can't see into the future anymore than you so of course I cannot give a definite date. That would be stupid. But since you don't follow the statistical data, unlike myself, you'll know when the peak has passed because the price of oil will be adversely affecting your life and everyone else's. That's the point I was making.

Mark Gobell wrote:
Are you saying that all of the reasons above and more are just a coordinated subterfuge ?

A conspiracy to keep "peak oil" quiet?


Yes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just listening to the Classics FM news item about the "summit" this weekend.

Summary:

Oil prices have risen by 34 cents overnight . . .

... but brokers say that rising tension between Israel and Iran is keeping the price high.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisc wrote:
Quote:
chrisc wrote:
Quote:
There is some more info on it here: http://uniteddiversity.com/transition-handbook/

When I'd stopped laughing at the name and the concept of "uniteddiversity", I went over to their website. After another chuckle at "Together we have everything" I clicked on the "money" link.

Quote:
After our last Open Coin meeting George Walker took us into his office to continue chatting...In the first OpenCoin meeting he said (in a strong Scottish accent):

“I think there is going to be a global currency. I call it the Global. This will either be a top-down currency from the IMF and World Bank, like existing SDRs (Special Drawing Rights), or a bottom-up, grassroots initiative, like what you are doing, which is much more exciting”

As Joe Pesci (defence lawyer) said in "My Cousin Vinnie" after completely discrediting another witness in 2 minutes flat:

"OK, I'm done with this guy..."


"My Cousin Vinnie" on Film4 tonight at 22:45, in case anyone (a) hasn't seen it, (b) didn't get the reference, and (z) cares at all.

James C wrote:
Quote:
At least simplesimon is living up to his name.

Don't really know what to make of that James. I should say I was referring to the clearly globalist source, not chrisc, to whom apologies if he took it personally.

Anyway ... no matter how you complicate it "uniteddiversity" is a laughable non sequitur, and SIMPLY recognisable as such. Think about it.

And any way you look at it, globalists are globalists, and SIMPLY recognisable as such. And SIMPLY (it's not complicated) the enemy.

IMO, that is. What kind of people want to rule the world?

And they are STILL pushing it (Transition Towns) on "The Archers".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In "The Archers" at the moment, there is a row between Joe Grundy and Linda Snell about how much they charge in "TEAs" (Transition Equivalents in Ambridge) for their services. Pat Archer has just IMPOSED prices on them. "Forget democracy - this is about our carbon footprint!". Very telling line I thought. It seems that they are not free to set their own prices? Does anyone know if this is correct? Do TT "core groups" claim the right to set prices? Looks like my hunch about a Union of Soviets might have some justification?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John White wrote:
Justin wrote:
Transition Towns envisage communities being changed 'under the old rules' and backed up by the pack of lies that we know are being peddled by the NWO. The basic premise of a community becoming a real community again, becoming more self -reliant, growing more of its own food locally using sustainable, organic methods, generating more of its own energy requirements and breaking away from the consumer mad (NWO engineered) 'rat race' so that people have more time to 'live', sounds and is marvellous. However, 'Peak Oil' is being peddled by the elite at this time for their own agenda as is CO2 man-made global warming (bottom line....Do you trust Al Gore and think he is a decent man not capable of practising deceit?).

No, the answer is to go for TRUTH TRANSITION TOWNS - basically as they are being envisaged at the moment but harnessing suppressed technologies (Tesla, Marconi etc), exploring the truth about our so-called 'reality' (cutting edge Quantum Physics etc) and understanding how the NWO's agenda operates so that we can defeat them non-violently by simply refusing to play their game (banking, conventional jobs etc etc).


Well Justin my basic premise is that the Elites manipulate the Real for their own advantage wherever and whenever possible. Marxism expolited the injustice of the working masses, Feminism exploited the injustice of Women's slavery, and the modern elite are exploiting Man's degredation of the environment and ravaging of finite resources. They do this with the same motivation everytime: FEAR: Fear of losing their power

But the reverse of that is that whatever buggering about the elite cabals get up to, they are never going to lose their power until we take it back: that means we have to get involved somehow, sometime. I'm also of the view that there have been shifts in the public consciousness this year catalysed by elite manipulations of Oil prices that are creating real opportunities now.

Hasnt 9/11 Truth taken something the Elite created (9/11) and used it to create something that works against their purpose? I certainly think it has: I see no difference there between 9/11 Truth and the potential of the Transition movement. Becuase if we get involved then we can put out the energy of Truth Transition, as you call it, and when peoples creativity is really accessed, then we have real opportunites to make those dreams real that we arnt going to get any other way

My View of Transistion towns is not based on what I think of Al Gore, or Rob Hopkins. For one thing becuase the character of someone presenting a POV does not defacto invalidate that POV, for another becuase I dont need a Guru thanks. But it is based on the people in my community, their skills, their talents, their willingness to get involved and make a difference, becuase there are the people I live in community with eeryday, these are the people I need to help make that difference, and there wont be a difference without them... and I can report they are far from niave about the manipulation of the environmental movemement by Elites, and open to 9/11 truth too...


Speaking as one who has taken the time and the trouble to get actively involved with TT in my own area (Liverpool) and one who prides herself of being well informed on as many of the issues as possible without socuming to fear or inertia I have to say I agree with every word of this, John White.


Ianrcrane,
To address one or two of the points you raise, first let me say that Rob Hopkins is in now way a 'leader' of Transition Towns. As a matter of fact, in the initiatives that I am personally involved with, there are NO leaders. The whole idea of TT is to empower and enable communities to develop their own strategies to deal with a f*cked economy (what-ever the causes) and global climate change (no matter whether you believe it is man-made or not. Personally, I believe it is man made.)
Myself and the vast majority of those involved in the TT Liverpool initiative(s) are determined that TT does not, in any way shape or form, become a top-down, prescriptive model (as far as I'm concerned top-down, just like trickle-down, benefits only those at the top of any hierarchy). We are, rather, involved in generating grass-roots, bottom-up solutions to the very real problems our communities are facing.

Just a couple of notes on the use of oil as a source of cheap energy. I'm by no means an expert but am inclined to reduce my dependence on oil for several reasons:
1. Being dependent on oil keeps me dependent on Big Oil! No thanks!!
2. Whether it's down to peak oil, market forces or whatever, cheep oil is over. Full Stop.
3. People can deny the human causes of Climate change all they want, that's fine, they may well be right (though I seriously doubt it!). But what if they're wrong? - We keep on burning oil, and the powers that be keep on creaming it in at our expense AND the Earths capacity to sustain human (and many other species) life is destroyed. - Not exactly the wisest of options.

So, the bottom line, as far as I'm concerned is, things need to change, fast. People need to reclaim the power and freedom to determine the course of their own lives as the NWO rots, and we need to develop (or, should I say, re-discover) sustainable methods of meeting our individual and community needs without recourse to any hierarchical power-structure.
TT offers a way to get involved in addressing the many problems facing us today. As far as I'm concerned that's a positive step forward for me personally. It may, or may not be for you. That's for you to decide.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the Forum Kazz! Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

truthseeker john wrote:
Welcome to the Forum Kazz! Wink


Hey John! Good to see you here! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi kazz67, welcome to the forum.

The following is written with reference to my post earlier in this thread, (extracts in italic) and I'd be interested in your thoughts on that post and this.

Quote:
The whole idea of TT is to empower and enable communities to develop their own strategies to deal with a f*cked economy...


But they impose their own ideology and specifically:
* exclude people who want to do so unless they are believers - you have to sign up to to core beliefs - or you're not welcome.
* exclude people who want to be independent of the state (as manifested in the local council).
* exclude people who would reject the UN (world government) as the body that grants (and can therefore withdraw) "human rights".

Also:
Many of us think that resisting Codex Alimentarius is essential and should be a key strategy - but TT seem to be "deniers" re. Codex.

All of which suggests to me that they are not about empowering and enabling, but controlling. Why won't they help me grow my own food and become self sufficient if I don't buy into their globalist vision?

Quote:
Myself and the vast majority of those involved in the TT Liverpool initiative(s) are determined that TT does not, in any way shape or form, become a top-down, prescriptive model



...Our trustees and funders want to make sure that while we actively nurture embryonic projects, we only promote to "official" status those communities we feel are ready to move into the awareness raising stage. This status confers additional levels of support... We've seen at least one community stall because they didn't have the right mindset or a suitable group of people...The distinct roles of "Local Transition Initiative", "Local Transition Hub" and "Temporary Initiating Hub" are very different and need to be discussed at the outset...

It certainly looks top down to me, and the fact that there is a centrally imposed doctrine essentially proves that, doesn't it?

Quote:
We are, rather, involved in generating grass-roots, bottom-up solutions to the very real problems our communities are facing.


But only from and with people who "have the right mindset" and are "suitable". I suppose you have heard of "astro-turf" organisations? If you want to change people's thinking and behaviour, it's best (and easy with unlimited resources) to make it look like it's being demanded by the people themselves, indeed to make them demand it. I don't know anything about the big money behind TT except that there is big money behind TT. What do you think would happen if you started to ask difficult questions about that?

Quote:
Just a couple of notes on the use of oil as a source of cheap energy. I'm by no means an expert but am inclined to reduce my dependence on oil for several reasons:
1. Being dependent on oil keeps me dependent on Big Oil! No thanks!!


Who would disagree? I'm completely with you there.

Quote:
2. Whether it's down to peak oil, market forces or whatever, cheep oil is over. Full Stop.


Have you considered market manipulation? The MSM will tell you of how "speculators" can affect oil prices, but will stop short of suggesting that the same mechanisms could be used to bring about a sense of "global crisis" - the answer to which of course, is global government. Same with food - The Grud recently told us that "Six global corporations control the world's food supply", or something like that, but won't consider the obvious - that those with that much money are no longer interested in money - it's about power and control - of mind, body and soul - and the world.

And of course, irrespective of whether there are "x" barrels of oil left or "x" times 1x10 raised to the tenth power, would big oil rather sell it cheaply or squeeze every penny out of us that they can?

Quote:
3. People can deny the human causes of Climate change all they want, that's fine, they may well be right (though I seriously doubt it!).


A computer model can predict anything the designer wants, but for now, does this make you pause for thought?

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200802/20080218_MTP_ 2_New_Man.htm
(just where I could find the relevant extracts quickly - know nothing about the site)

Quote:
"In searching for a new enemy to unite us [all of humanity], we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself."



Quote:
But what if they're wrong?

TT seem to give higher priority to what you think than to what you do - if you're mind's not right Luke... they don't want you. I suggest that if their stated objectives were their real objectives, they would take help from and give it to anyone who shared them - irrespective of their other views.


Quote:
So, the bottom line, as far as I'm concerned is, things need to change, fast.


Without going at length into the meaning (-lesness) of the word "progressive", do you not think that concerned, compassionate and intelligent people (such as yourself I suppose) are the prime targets for mind control (in the widest sense) by those who want to bring about the most profound change - the one which some of us can see promoted all day everyday in the MSM - declared one-world government?

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200802/20080218_MTP_ 2_New_Man.htm

Quote:
"Regarding individual values and attitudes the following lessons seem to be outstanding for the new global ethic implicit in the preceding requirements:

1) A world consciousness must be developed through which every individual realizes his role as a member of the world community... It must become part of the consciousness of every individual that "the basic unit of human cooperation and hence survival is moving from the national to the global level."

2) A new ethic in the use of material resources must be developed which will result in a style of life compatible with the oncoming age of scarcity... One should be proud of saving and conserving rather than of spending and discarding.

3) An attitude toward nature must be developed based on harmony rather than conquest. Only in this way can man apply in practice what is already accepted in theory - that is, that man is an integral part of nature.


Will you at least consider that what attracts you to TT (as well, frankly, as every other idea you ever had about anything) are not really your own ideas - they have been placed in your mind by others, contrasted with an equally contrived bogeyman, and, being concerned and compassionate, you now think you are a righteous supporter of the "good guys"?

Please don't think I'm questiong your intelligence or suggesting you're especially gullible - there was a time when I would have fallen for (as I now see it) TT and all that goes with it.

Quote:
TT offers a way to get involved in addressing the many problems facing us today.

Hegelian Dialectic? Problem-Reaction-Solution? Haven't you noticed that we're constantly told of "global problems", "global threats", "global crises", all needing "global solutions"?


Will you (or anyone) tell me I'm wrong that TT being pushed on "The Archers" is a strong indication that "they" are promoting it, while TT seeks to wear an anti-establishment mantle?

Can you tell me whether TT "core groups" (the leaders who are not leaders) are able to dictate prices in their local currencies (As suggested by the presumably well researched "Archers" script)?

I'd also be interested in learning what the majority in your TT group (and particularly the "core group" and your "upline people") think about 911.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-930-0-6-6--.html


'Greenshirt' youths urged to inform on eco-crimes



Source: Canada.COM

In a recent series of ads aimed at school children, a leading British energy company has assigned a controversial summer project: police their family's global-warming crimes.

Launched last week by NPower -- the country's fourth-largest provider -- the campaign is part of a larger program to educate children about global warming and the wasteful habits that might exacerbate it.

Placed in prominent newspapers such as The Sunday Times and The Telegraph, the ads offer giveaway diaries in which kids can note domestic infractions, such as leaving a mobile phone charging for too long or a Nintendo game left flickering in the dark, as well as Post-It notes, which can be left at the crime scene as a warning to the offenders. Equally important, the campaign seeks to attract kids to its controversial Web site, Climate Cops, which encourages children to monitor and report on their domestic energy crimes to their classrooms.

Some activists and marketers see the site as a clever marketing gimmick to teach children to preserve their planet. Others see excessive indoctrination tactics lifted from the pages of the George Orwell novel 1984, in which children are set against their parents, or worse, the Hitler Youth, who were encouraged to betray their loved ones for the greater glory of the state.

Last Tuesday, a satirical article on the British Web site Anorak referred to these cadets as "Greenshirts" and compared them to the young Blackshirts of yore. "NPower, the electricity people, want you, the Britisher Jungvolk, to inform on your mums and your dads if they disobey the rules on climate change."

Despite the mockery and alarm found on some Web sites this week, NPower said that the response has been overwhelming positive, and that the company does not wish to spawn a new generation of eco-narcs. "This is not supposed to be remotely sinister," said spokeswoman Zoe Melarkey.

Instead, she added that the program gives children a feeling of empowerment they might not otherwise have.

The company's fetching, kid-friendly Web pages use games, posters and vivid cartoons to draw fresh recruits, who are typically between the ages of seven and eleven.

Once connected, kids can download "Climate Crime" Cards to monitor their family's misdeeds.

"Report back to your family to make sure they don't commit those crimes again (or else!)" Instructs the site page, which features a polar giving the thumbs-up and three kids wearing baggy trousers and "Academy Cadet" T-Shirts.

"You can spread your search even wider by adding even more Case Files to your notes," it suggests. "What about the homes of your uncles, aunts or friends from school?"

The Web site is part of NPower's Greener Schools Program, which has alloted a budget of £20-million over five years. While it is hoping to reach 150 primary and secondary schools across the U.K. this year, the program eventually seeks to reach 2,500 in total. Last year, 65 schools participated.

"It's not about reporting on your parents," said Clare McDougall, NPower's education project director. "It's how the accumulation of small differences add up to one big difference."

Ms. McDougall added that contrary to some critics' impressions, children do not report on the parents to people in position of authority, such as teachers. Instead, she stressed, it is merely a light-hearted awareness exercise, and the information does not go any farther than the child's family.

When the Climate Cops were introduced last fall, it faced some vocal resistance, especially from Tim Newark, a British historian. "The idea that they are going to use this scheme to inform on their parents is really like something out of 1984," he told the Islington Tribune, adding that education on the topic of global warming should be presented more calmly. "It's a dreadful throwback to fascist times. Schools should be more balanced."

The idea of home-energy suppliers that encouraged conservation also smacked of Orwellian irony: why would utilities companies deliberately want to lose revenue?

In part, the answer has to do with the country's deregulation policy. As part of its program to privatize the sector in the 1990s, the British government required energy companies to promote efficiency. The larger the energy provider, the more money it is legally obliged to spend. NPower, which is owned by the German utility giant RWE, claims that it earmarks more than £300-million over three years towards conservation programs.

Beginning with British Petroleum, there is also a larger trend of energy companies that is trying to green their image at a time of dwindling resources and concern about carbon emissions.

In Canada, for example, David Suzuki appears in ads promoting Powerwise, a partnership between local Ontario electrical utilities and the Government of Ontario.

One of his spots takes a similar approach to the Climate Cops.

It pans to a treehouse sign that prohibits wasteful parents. Inside there is Dr. David Suzuki, talking in a conspiratorial whispers with children as they figure out ways in which to save electricity.

"I have a friend, and his parents don't believe in conserving," complains one girl.

"You have the power," Dr. Suzuki replies. "It's up to you to start saying, ‘Hey remember...'" but before he can offer any further advice, the scene fades out.

"The paradigm has completely shifted because of the climate-change debate," said Don Millar, president of the Element Agency, a Vancouver environmental communications firm.

NPower's campaign impresses Mr. Millar, who implied that it was about time that the issue of conservation moved from penny-saving to planet-saving. He also liked the playful aspect, which he did not see as being shrill. "You don't have this whiny, hectoring eat-your-peas approach," he observed. "Kids want to be smarter than their parents, and they love catching them doing things they don't want to do."

When asked about the Climate Cops campaign, another expert in the Green field had a more negative reaction. "Didn't Hitler try to do something like that?" asked Scott McDougall, the president of TerraChoice, an Ottawa-based Canadian environmental marketing firm that represents clients such as Xerox and Oxybrite.

Mr. McDougall said he preferred what he considers a more positive approach. Plugging his client, Bullfrog Power as an example, he said that the Toronto-based company offers a clubby community for people who buy its renewable resources: stars such as Margaret Atwood and everyday people exchanging tips and anecdotes about their product.

Susan Bartoletti Campbell, who has written book about the Hitler Youth, said that she feels conflicted about the campaign. While the author and former school teacher says she sympathizes with the cause of stopping global warming, she thinks that harnessing children against adults is excessive. "There is a saying that ‘He who gains Youth gains the future,' " she said. "I think Hitler said that."

At the same time, she said to stress her Green bona fides. "I want to go on record as saying that it is sunny and warm here, and my linens are outside drying on the line. They are not in a dryer."




Jung-ian psychology Mang, the Bat,sets free-


Rudyard Kipling: The Jungle Book

Mowgli's Brothers

Now Rann the Kite brings home the night
That Mang the Bat sets free--
The herds are shut in byre and hut
For loosed till dawn are we.
This is the hour of pride and power,
Talon and tush and claw.
Oh, hear the call!--Good hunting all
That keep the Jungle Law!
-- Night-Song in the Jungle
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Real Community Issues! Reply with quote

Facing up to the Real Community Challenges Ahead.

As the price of oil drops below $55 per barrel, piracy on the high-seas becomes the new threat to oil supplies ... just as, coincidentally, the private security company Blackwater launches its first Global Support Vessel.

Man, these guys are creative!

Very real community issues will likely arise in the coming months. Evidenced by Colin Powell, Joe Biden, Zbigniew Brzezinski and others all predicting that Barak Obama will be tested in the first few weeks/months of his Presidency; just as G. Bush Snr (1990 Kuwait Invasion) Clinton (1993 WTC bombing) and G.W. Bush (9/11) all were. The pattern is well established but this time the stakes are potentially much higher, due to the manufactured global financial meltdown (a long way to go yet!) and the imminence of massive negative equity amongst property 'owners', exacerbated by rapidly increasing unemployment levels.

The combination of which places the general populace in a highly vulnerable and manipulable state, due to the uncertainty of a significant proportion of the population being able to sustain the basics of food & shelter.

With oil at $55 per barrel and falling (unless there are further instances of 'piracy' on the high seas and/or a Bush/Israel attack on Iran sometime between now and 20th January 2009), it is surely time to move on from the dogma of 'Peak Oil' and 'Anthropogenic Climate Change' and start addressing the REAL Community issues.

Hamish Miller's Parallel Community is surely the primary model for co-ordinating Community initiative focus on real issues ... and not those issues which may have served as useful tools to initiate a process but to which continued attachment only serves to highlight the egocentricity of the TT agenda.


Ian R Crane
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Real Community Issues! Reply with quote

ianrcrane wrote:
Facing up to the Real Community Challenges Ahead.

As the price of oil drops below $55 per barrel, piracy on the high-seas becomes the new threat to oil supplies ... just as, coincidentally, the private security company Blackwater launches its first Global Support Vessel.

Man, these guys are creative!

Very real community issues will likely arise in the coming months. Evidenced by Colin Powell, Joe Biden, Zbigniew Brzezinski and others all predicting that Barak Obama will be tested in the first few weeks/months of his Presidency; just as G. Bush Snr (1990 Kuwait Invasion) Clinton (1993 WTC bombing) and G.W. Bush (9/11) all were. The pattern is well established but this time the stakes are potentially much higher, due to the manufactured global financial meltdown (a long way to go yet!) and the imminence of massive negative equity amongst property 'owners', exacerbated by rapidly increasing unemployment levels.

The combination of which places the general populace in a highly vulnerable and manipulable state, due to the uncertainty of a significant proportion of the population being able to sustain the basics of food & shelter.

With oil at $55 per barrel and falling (unless there are further instances of 'piracy' on the high seas and/or a Bush/Israel attack on Iran sometime between now and 20th January 2009), it is surely time to move on from the dogma of 'Peak Oil' and 'Anthropogenic Climate Change' and start addressing the REAL Community issues.

Hamish Miller's Parallel Community is surely the primary model for co-ordinating Community initiative focus on real issues ... and not those issues which may have served as useful tools to initiate a process but to which continued attachment only serves to highlight the egocentricity of the TT agenda.


Ian R Crane


How sad. I start reading this forum again after a few months away and read this pathetic post by Mr Crane. As usual, his rhetoric is misguided and flawed and this is the man who challenged me to a public debate on peak oil only to bow out. As I suspected, Mr Crane has no balls.

Now I'm open minded enough to accept that world events including the current financial meltdown can or usually are being manipulated by certain leaders but without direct proof it is hard to say for sure. Which is why when he says the credit crunch is an artificial creation I have to laugh. Firstly, where's his proof? Secondly, he clearly fails to spot the link between the price of oil as was during the sub-prime mortgage collapse over a year ago and its affect on the whole house of cards that is the global financial system. Tell me Ian, why is fiscal growth so important to us? Why do politicians and economists keep harping on about it? Because it is the fundamental part of the fractional reserve system, without which, the system fails, just as we are experiencing now. And tell me Ian, how do you maintain economic growth? (although really you should know by now because I've been writing about this for almost 4 years!!) Well it's simple, you need cheap energy such that businesses and everyday people can continue to afford the products and fuel they need to go about their lives making and spending money. But for the past 3 years or so, that energy has been getting more expensive reaching a peak earlier this summer. No wonder those sub-prime mortgage customers defaulted on their loans if their basic living costs had suddenly risen beyond accepted limits. And as fractional reserve banking is essentially a multiplying tool which increases the fiscal balance by 10 fold compared to real money in circulation, it doesn't take much effort to understand how a change in the balancing of the books at the input end will have a ten fold affect at the other which has caused the financial situation we now find ourselves in.

So what if oil is now at $55/barrel. This shows that market forces are truly at work which contradicts your ramblings in other posts on the subject about it all being a game of manipulation. If the politicians and US government really wanted to squeeze every penny from us then they wouldn't have let the oil price fall to where it is now. This must be crippling the US who need a much greater circulation of dollars than is currently happening with oil at $55/barrel. But your second to last paragraph above shows a worrying naivety about peak oil which as I've long suspected proves that you have no authority when it comes to criticizing the concept. If you did then you wouldn't imply that the price of oil is low and will stay that way because if you dig deeper you'll find that it won't as I've been saying all along (look back at my posts and you'll read how I've stated the price of oil will rise and fall in response to financial system chaos as we reach peak oil). Why? Because with oil at this price there is no incentive for the oil majors to invest in hard to reach oil, something which the world desperately needs if it is to attempt to maintain business as usual especially when most oil fields are now in decline, some by several percent a year. Why don't you read what Michael Meacher says about this (article below). So don't settle into a world with oil at this price because it won't stay that way for long and it may just be that cooperating with those people who do understand and wish to make a success of the TT movement to build a better world without oil will be a wise move on your part. I suspect though that you, like many others, don't want your oil dependent lifestyle to change and will be rioting on the streets when oil does rise again but next time much higher.

Crude mathematics - A plunging oil price means cheaper petrol now – and no fuel later as industry investment shrivels

Quote:
Michael Meacher. The Guardian - 28/11/08

A snip at $48.50. Now that the price of a barrel of benchmark Brent crude continues to fall like a stone in the global recession, a drop of no less than two-thirds since the high point of $147.50 just four months ago, the relief is huge among motorists and hard-pressed consumers.

Conversely, for the oil-producing countries (especially Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Venezuela) it is potentially cataclysmic, though some, such as the US, may rejoice at that. But there is another dimension to this oil-price slide which has been little noticed, but which long-term is extremely serious.

If oil prices remain well below a certain critical level for any significant period of time, large amounts of investment in expected oil production capacity will simply be written off, and the consequence could then be a recovery-stopping supply-side crunch within little more than two years.

That critical level is widely reckoned within the oil industry to be $90 a barrel. A current price as low as half that critical level is already forcing many companies to drop oil projects, and the banking crisis is also squeezing project financing for foreign oil companies operating in OPEC and outside.

Russia's four major energy companies – Gazprom, LUKoil, Rosneft, and TNK-BP – depend heavily on debt to finance operations, and are scaling down their investments. They have already been forced to seek an allocation of more credit to refinance their external debts. But with Russia now facing a $150bn shortfall in its spending plans for 2009 and where Russian markets have lost 70% of their value in just six months since May, it is all too likely they will be forced to slash their investments further.

The consequences of this for the EU and the UK are very serious. Since the EU gets 40% of its gas from Russia, where 70% of the gas fields are already in decline, any further major cutting-back in future oil and gas investments could act as a pincer on EU and UK energy supply. Indeed, the Russian energy industry has warned that if the decline continues, Russia may not be able to service even its own domestic gas needs by 2010 – this from a country where Gazprom is the largest extractor of gas in the world.

A prolonged slump in the oil price at below $50 a barrel will thus inevitably lead to another cycle of shortages and soaring prices. This intense price volatility is the first stage of the devil's see-saw that is likely to accompany the coming of Peak Oil, which is widely expected within the next five years.

These very sharp boom-and-bust capitalist cycles in oil may well turn out to be even more globally destabilising than the credit crunch. What is clearly needed, though sadly highly unlikely, is an international conference (perhaps as a serious offshoot from the lightweight G20 conference a week ago?) to reach a binding agreement on the oil price for a five-year period rolled forward, which might then avoid the massive overshoot in prices at both peak and nadir which we are seeing at the present time, with potentially calamitous consequences.
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James C
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremy Clarkson on Radio 5 live this week....

Quote: "We're heading toward the end of days and you better get yourself an allotment"!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7766057.stm

Perhaps it is time to accept that TT does have something to offer and stop listening to the likes of Mr Crane et al. This NWO nonsense is purely hypothetical and does nothing to help the 9/11 truth campaign. Get used to it; the world is running out of cheap and abundant energy which is going to destroy the financial system and the elite are running scared. It's as simple as that. The elite are no more in control than you or I. Their only advantage is that they can manipulate the geo-politics of it all by using false-flag attack tactics in the hope of coaxing a failing system to move in their favour. But if you look at history then that is always what happens when periods of civilization come to an end but it still doesn't prevent all out collapse.

Get yourself that allotment or become very friendly with those that do and start thinking locally. That is what TT is all about and is nothing sinister as Ian Crane would have you believe. TT is purely an honourable attempt to get people to work together at grass roots level and escape the nonsense rhetoric of our so called leaders.
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simplesimon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James C wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time to accept that TT does have something to offer


For a price. No matter how much you have to offer in furthering self-sufficiency, you have to buy into their globalist s**t, otherwise they won't help you. You will be excommunicated.

You have to adopt their basic law on peak oil theory, man made climate change, and soon, pledge allegiance to the UN (world government).

Quote:
and is nothing sinister as Ian Crane would have you believe.


Sinister is the perfect word to describe them, as with anyone who talks about "changing the world". Big anonymous money in the background. Official promotion on the Archers. Codex denial. Compulsory state involvement. Compulsory participation in pyramid marketing like sales events. Compulsory belief systems. Twelve step programs.


Quote:
TT is purely an honourable attempt to get people to work together at grass roots level

It is top down to a tee. Are you suggesting their globalist doctrines are debated with the mass membership?

They care more about what you think than what you do.

Quote:
and escape the nonsense rhetoric of our so called leaders.

.... be led by the nose by an unaccountable globalist organisation that has sprung up from nowhere and spouts exactly the same globalist rhetoric as our so called leaders.

_________________
If you want to know who is really in control, ask yourself who you cannot criticise.
"The hunt for 'anti-semites' is a hunt for pockets of resistance to the NWO"-- Israel Shamir
"What we in America call terrorists are really groups of people that reject the international system..." - Heinz "Henry" Kissinger
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James C
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simplesimon wrote:
James C wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps it is time to accept that TT does have something to offer


For a price. No matter how much you have to offer in furthering self-sufficiency, you have to buy into their globalist s**t, otherwise they won't help you. You will be excommunicated.

You have to adopt their basic law on peak oil theory, man made climate change, and soon, pledge allegiance to the UN (world government).

Quote:
and is nothing sinister as Ian Crane would have you believe.


Sinister is the perfect word to describe them, as with anyone who talks about "changing the world". Big anonymous money in the background. Official promotion on the Archers. Codex denial. Compulsory state involvement. Compulsory participation in pyramid marketing like sales events. Compulsory belief systems. Twelve step programs.


Quote:
TT is purely an honourable attempt to get people to work together at grass roots level

It is top down to a tee. Are you suggesting their globalist doctrines are debated with the mass membership?

They care more about what you think than what you do.

Quote:
and escape the nonsense rhetoric of our so called leaders.

.... be led by the nose by an unaccountable globalist organisation that has sprung up from nowhere and spouts exactly the same globalist rhetoric as our so called leaders.


All the above is utter nonsense. I haven't heard so much claptrap in all my life.

Although I've read the TT handbook I don't attend TT meetings because I can think for myself but I do know plenty of people who do go. Do they follow the 12 steps? Some do, some don't. The steps are only there as a guide yet people like you desperately try to claim that TT comes with a rigid rule book which must imply elitism.

Your last line proves that you have no experience of what the movement is about. As usual, the 9/11 movement is full of people who just make stuff up. It's no wonder that 9/11 truth has achieved nothing in the past few years.
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simplesimon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James C wrote:

Quote:
All the above is utter nonsense. I haven't heard so much claptrap in all my life.

Devastating.

Which do you dispute?
That they want to "change the world"?
That there is big anonymous money in the background?
Official promotion on the Archers?
They are Codex deniers?
Compulsory state involvement?
Compulsory participation in pyramid marketing like sales events?
Compulsory belief systems?

Or that any of this is "sinister"?

Twelve step programs. You've given me more than I knew. Listen to yourself:

Quote:
Do they follow the 12 steps? Some do, some don't. The steps are only there as a guide.


It's starting to look like a religion.

Quote:
Your last line proves that you have no experience of what the movement is about.

All I know is what I've read on their website. I've backed up everything I've said about them by reference to their own official literature.

Quote:
yet people like you

Meaning?

Quote:
desperately try to claim that TT comes with a rigid rule book

It does, as quoted by me in this thread., and available for all to see on their website.

Quote:
which must imply elitism.

The first two doctrines (think of those as a rigid rules James, written in a book) are concerned with what you think.

How about seriously engaging on just one serious point? They care more about what you think than what you do.


Quote:
It's no wonder that 9/11 truth has achieved nothing in the past few years.

It has. It's got dullards like you working for world government.

_________________
If you want to know who is really in control, ask yourself who you cannot criticise.
"The hunt for 'anti-semites' is a hunt for pockets of resistance to the NWO"-- Israel Shamir
"What we in America call terrorists are really groups of people that reject the international system..." - Heinz "Henry" Kissinger
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James C
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simplesimon wrote:
Which do you dispute?
That they want to "change the world"?
That there is big anonymous money in the background?
Official promotion on the Archers?
They are Codex deniers?
Compulsory state involvement?
Compulsory participation in pyramid marketing like sales events?
Compulsory belief systems?


Sigh!

Products of a paranoid mind. One without taking on board any of the facts that are as plain as the nose on your face like the one that we are at peak oil. I have yet to see a critic prove that to be inaccurate. Would you care to give it a go? Or are you going to believe the carefully crafted words of certain people like Mr Crane - a man who decided against a public debate with me on the issue of peak oil (perhaps he realized he would lose)

Tell me. What exactly does Codex mean? Can you show me the proof of how it will affect YOU?

Tell me. Where exactly does TT say we must buy into pyramid marketing schemes?

Tell me. Where is the proof that there is some external monetary control?

Tell me. How exactly are TT meant to affect changes to our oil driven economy without trying to change the world? Or would you rather cling on to your oil dependent world?

Tell me. Have you contacted Rob Hopkins about the rules? If you'd care to you'd find him to be a very amenable person who'd be happy to support any changes to the TT ethos if it helps you and your community.

And as for the laughable Arches comment. Are you seriously suggesting the scriptwriters are under strict orders to pervert the truth somehow? Or could it be they were simply responding to changing times in the hope they can keep the programme topical.

People like you are pathetic. All mouth and no brains, accusing those with differing views to yours as colluding with the elite (as if that were possible). You're exactly the sort of person who'll be rioting in the streets come the social backlash at falling energy supplies because it's easier than getting involved with your local community.

Grow up!
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